Wow I'm actually really thrilled to see this old thread come to life again. Thanks everyone for the great discussion. A few points: Not true. source If you don't believe in god than you should know better than anyone that morals don't come from religion. Of course they are conscious. Why would you even think that? They feel pain and other stress just as vividly as we do. My final point is to defend the video posted. If nobody noticed, it's in the OP, as well as a better and longer one. They are not propaganda, they are not worst case scenarios. They are industry standard.
Actully that's not entirely true. Your stomach will produce more or less HCL (an acid) depending on what you eat. So, the acidity of the stomach ranges from about a 2 to a 6. The digestive system also has a hard time digesting cellulose, this is where creationists point to the appendix. It's purpose, today is unknown, but Christians speculate that when God cursed Adam and Eve, He caused the appendix to quit functioning. Once out of the garden where fresh produce was in short supply, they would have had to rely on a steady diet of animals as well. Of course, this is just a theory... But the point is that the digestive system has just as hard a time with plant matter as it does with meats. Also the whole teeth thing is inconclusive. I'm sure we could find examples of animals with carnivorous teeth that only eat fruit and vice versa. Suffice to say, it really comes down to personal preference and your own conscience. If you do or don't eat meat then fine, but don't look down on another person because of their personal decisions. No one is going to listen to you.
No, rusty, that's entirely the point. Plants are harder on the digestive system, hence the longer process for herbivores. When meat, which is quickly broken down, is artificially kept in the gut for longer than needed, it starts to rot. source edit: I somewhat agree with your last line, provided that person is making an informed decision.
Well I would think that meat rotting would cause some sort of infection or make me sick. Anyways, I'm still able to eat meat and be healthy. I don't see how citing a source that is obviously pro-vegetarian is going to sway the way I think about eating.
I'm not either of these categories, and I have no problem with vegetarians, as there's a good number of them. But vegans I just don't understand. :/ I mean, if you don't eat the chicken's eggs, it's not going to stop laying them, it's going to keep at it, whether or not you take them away. Same goes for milk. I hope you all realize if you don't milk a cow, you're actually doing it harm. Don't milk a cow for long enough and eventually it's gonna asplode....
I'm not trying to convince you to make any particular choice. I have said again and again in this thread that all I want is for people to be informed. Plus, the herbivore / omnivore issue not really important compared to the animal abuse issue. Edit: @ MultiLockOn: You obviously have no idea how the industry works. Watch the videos in the OP.
Dumbass, a chicken will keep laying eggs because that's how it reproduces. Also, a cow is not going to explode. If it were natural, a cow would only produce milk during pregnancy.
i eat anything i don t care as long as it tastes good. i respect your choice to be a vegan though but one questions.....do ya chow down on tha pink tocos/
Read above posted comments on subject especially the link which helps support my argument on diet affecting evolution/lifestyle and brain development of animals. Im not saying what you guys are doing is wrong I just believe that your severely limiting your food pallet. My reponses are in Green.
Are you ****ing retarded, I wasn't being serious about either of those, you obviously don't know anything but literal meanings. My point is that an animal won't stop making crap just because people don't take it in the first place.
Sid, I didn't just decide one day that I don't like the taste anymore or that meat didn't agree with my metabolism. It was a sacrifice. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not it pleases me or not... it's not about me. Come on, now. And this is the case for most other vegetarians/vegans as well. You've been in a factory farm? I ask because they are notoriously impossible to gain public access to. If you somehow did, you would know that we don't eat all that we kill, or close to it. Additionally, ever heard of bycatch? Touche, well done. I was skeptical, but those are all very interesting. The first one is the most convincing. The second one concludes that the evidence is inconclusive as to what you said - "The link between diet and brain evolution is, however, indirect." The third one is a sample of a book, and the chapter that would be most useful (chapter 15) is not included. However, you said it yourself: You have to consider the differences between today and antiquity. I once heard an amazing quote. I can't quite remember exactly where I heard it from, but I think it was some radio talk show (I admit to listening to XM 167 a lot). The topic was world overpopulation. The exact quote, which I haven't forgotten, was "we have to show that intelligence counts for something." In other words... what good is it to have intelligence if we allow ourselves to be conquered by the problems that intelligence has created? Today's factory farm industry is abominable. If we can't find a way to feed our bloated population without tormenting the very creatures we live off of to every inch of their existence, that why be intelligent in the first place? What is the good outcome? It's a failure of capitalism. I can't be any more specific than that. It completely eclipses the topic of human evolution. We are here, now. That is willed ignorance. "In their behavior toward creatures, all men are Nazis. Human beings see oppression vividly when they're the victims. Otherwise they victimize blindly and without a thought." -Isaac Bashevis Singer "Our task must be to free ourselves . . . by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature and its beauty." -Albert Einstein "What is it that should trace the insuperable line? ...The question is not, Can they reason? nor, Can they talk? but, Can they suffer?" -Jeremy Bentham "Animals are my friends... and I don't eat my friends." -George Bernard Shaw
Does that still justify locking them in small cages and giving them horrible living conditions. Animals do these things naturally without a doubt but if we force them to do it there is something wrong. I am an Omnivore I eat anything really. But I never waste any form of meat, that is the only thing that ticks me off. Idiots who throw away meat of some sort, I know that animals suffer to make the food we eat so I never waste it then I see two or three kids throwing away large pieces of meat. I just wanna slap em!
I understand your point, but realize that those sort of conditions don't necessarily happen to every animal. And most likely people throwing away meat don't honestly think about it the same way you do. But honestly, I mean, they're not doing anything wrong per se, it's just....meat. I mean, everyone does it.
"Don't necessarily" And I quoted that because that is the point I want to discuss. Why should that be happening at all? This is why I do not waste food, because I fear that the food I might throw away might have been from one of these tortured animals. Throwing away food is wrong period, don't take for granted what you have because when it is gone you will sure as hell miss it. A cliche quote would be "There are other kids starving in the world" and as overused as this quote is, it's true. A: Eat it B: Don't Serve more then you can eat. That principal is so easy to follow, wasting food is sad, especially if it came from an animal that was tortured.
Well first off,you could thank our ancestors for eating meat because eating meat and the development of the human brain go hand in hand,t was this new meat diet, full of densely-packed nutrients, that provided the catalyst for human evolution, particularly the growth of the brain.Without meat,it's unlikely that proto humans could have secured enough energy and nutrition from the plants available in their African environment at that time to evolve into the active, sociable, intelligent creatures they became. Receding forests would have deprived them of the more nutritious leaves and fruits that forest-dwelling primates survive on. Also,in many parts of the world where people have little access to meat, they have run the risk of malnutrition.This happened, for instance, in Southeast Asia where people relied heavily on a single plant food, polished rice, and developed the nutritional disease, beriberi. Closer to home, in the Southern United States, many people dependent largely on corn meal developed the nutritional disease, pellagra. Further more,Meat and animal protein is important for the development of children. Without meat in the grocery bag children would stay smaller, weaker and less intelligent.Meat and animal products such as milk contain nutrients, which cannot be supplied via vegan food. The nutrition of Kenyan children consists mainly of corn and beans, which leads to a lack of iron, zinc, calcium and the vitamins A, E, B12.Meat is not only one of the very oldest foods for humans, but is also one the most biologically valuable. This fact is mainly due to its high protein content. In addition, however, a part of the human requirement for vitamins and iron is also covered by eating meat. It is therefore not surprising that meat has an especially high importance in the menu planning for people worldwide.
First off, thank you for the excellent argument. Your post is very well informed. My only criticism (apart from my counter-argument, lol) is your lack of references. That's all very possible, but very irrelevant to anybody's diet today. It's an interesting topic to study but does nothing to address the issues we've been focusing on in this debate. Eyeless Sid and I touched on this a bit already. Monocrop diets always have nutritional inadequacies. The pattern of prehistoric peoples worldwide was to transition from hunting/foraging to agriculture. The trade-off was the ability to produce food for more people at the cost of an overall nutiritonal hit per individual, especially if they took up a single crop only. Lack of vitamin C will give you scurvy, lack of vitamin D will give you rickets - neither one of these come from not enough meat. All nutrients are important for different reasons, and variety is more valuable than a single magic bullet (meat) that provides a certain set of nutrients. It is true that in many cases of endemic malnutrition, an addition of meat to the diet could go a long way to provide some of the most needed proteins and other nutrients. I am certainly not arguing any principle that would apply to the whole world. I am concerned with the animal abuse and environmental impact of factory farming, a practice limited to industrialized nations. That is of course refering to indigenous peoples of the southern part of what is now know as the United States, certainly not applicable to the modern era. Also, pellagra was caused by a deficiency of B3 which is found in citrus fruit. Of the people you refer to, only those who did not mix lime juice in their corn got the disease. source Again, the Kenyan reference does not apply outside of Kenya, and your statement that there are nutrients that cannot be supplied via vegan food is false. It is a challenge and requires a good deal of education, consideration, and access to a wide variety of plant-based foods. The needed variety is available in developed countries, probably including parts of Kenya. The challenge is greater and the implications more serious for children, to the point that it may or may not be an irresponsible thing to attempt, especially if there are other health conditions present. Here are two good sources about this: Without Meat Children Are Damaged, Say Scientists Vegetarian Diets for Children The first one talks about the dangers but if you read it through to the end it gives both sides of it. Don't forget meat has some heath hazards as well. If you can get all nutrients offered by meat through plant-based foods and supplements, but none of the detriments such as cholesterol, than that is a clear advantage.
God put animals on this planent for us to eat. Meat contains ALOT of vitamins and other nutrients that our body needs. So really your just starving your own body. How can you NOT love meat? Meat is crazily good! Yea, some of the slaughtering ways are ridiculous, but other than that, I can care less about that cow or pig.