Assuming that god created the principles of science, math, logic, etc. he would also have to abide by them. This is because if god is perfection, everything that he creates would have to function perfectly according to their design. However we, as humans, can only comprehend in 3 dimensions and are bound to the physical plain of existence. Because god is metaphysical (beyond the realm of the physical), he is not bound the rules that govern the physical and since we are physical we have no way of knowing for sure what those metaphysical rules are. We may attempt to divine them by using logical elimination but ultimately we are left with what it cannot be instead of what it can be. The question of whether god exists or does not exists centers on the conflict of whether the finite can be infinite and vice versa. It has been mathematically proven that the universe is indeed expanding (source) but this presents a grave paradox. What is the universe expanding into? Truthfully, I do not know. No one knows. Yet. But it presents the issue stated above. If the universe creates as it expands we can assume that the finite and the infinite are one and the same because the universe (which is finite and has a limit) is able to expand infinitely. If we assume that the universe is not infinite then some other being is creating what the universe expands in to. Therefore the presence of a deity or "god" is dependent on whether or not the finite can be the infinite. Sorry for the long post but I needed to warm up before I head over to philosophy class...
It's not a paradox, it does not contradict itself. Here's a comparison, it's similar to inflating a balloon. Is inflating a balloon a paradox? No it is not. What does it expand into? A bigger, more widespread balloon.
You're then assuming that there is a world outside of this balloon. Imagine there is literal nothingness around your balloon and it's magically getting bigger by itself into the nothingness...the comparison really doesn't relate at all.
Actually we can comprehend not three, but four dimensions. The fourth dimension is time. And I am sure that most people are familiar with time. The universe is NOT infinite. It is 14 billion light years wide. This can be looked at as a large distance or a small distance. It really depends on your perspective. I don't really see the relationship between finite, infinity & god? Some people believe that the universe we live in is the only universe. What if there were actaully an infinite number of universes?? No matter what science concludes though, someone who believes in god will just simply say, oh.. god created all of it anyway. It is a non stop loop. God can never be proven. This thread has run it's course. It should be locked now. I guess the staff likes the attention though, it brings in new members..
The paradox I was referring to was that in one scenario, the finite and the infinite were one and the same. The problem is that the universe is everything. It cannot expand into nothingness because nothingness is something. For example, if you had a void, an empty space, it is not nothing, it is a void it is something. If the universe, which is everything, is expanding, it must either create as it expands or something is creating as the universe expands. Truly, there is no way to find out either way.
Well if the universe undergoes heat death, the universe will run out of thermodynamic energy, to the point were motion and life are impossible. If it undergoes cold death, then the universe will cool as it expands, and eventually the temperature will be so close to 0 that life is impossible. There really, really is. There are already some theories into why the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate, I remember one of them had to do with dark matter, and seeing as how i'm hardly an expert physicist, i'm not even going to attempt to explain. Just so there's no more confusion, do you believe in a god that is a conscious entity?
Infinite Thread Dr. Kaku explains the multiverse YouTube - Multiverse theory by Dr. Michio Kaku Come on, Dream. This debate should never be locked regardless of the general loop in the argument. It is not about proving an absolute truth(Especially not on a gaming website). It's about changing individual minds. Each new person that comes into the thread has a cornucopia of positions, concessions, and counters to review before even posting a view of their own. There have been such a large number of angles to view God from brought up here that the thread should remain open just for the great reading material. History shows that spirituality does not remain constant. The constant has been change as we adapt our answers to the big questions to better fit our changing understanding of the universe. People should continue to fight for what makes the most sense to them, through the debate some will be swayed, and over time these small shifts in mindset will guide us towards new ways to look at God.
Happy To See Me? And also remember that Ministry i mentioned a couple dozen pages back? Whenever we prayed for the kids at the parks we went to we would finish and a HUGE wind would come through and blow away all the cups, plates, silverware and Food, heck it lifted a cooler maybe about 40 pounds in weight and knocked its contents on to the ground, Yet nothing else moved the trees were still, the kids did not flinch the grass didn't move. And guess what else? it happened every time we prayed for those kids I don't know about you, But thats all the proof anyone would need...
Wind You really think that wind story is all the proof anyone would need to believe in god? It's laughable. There are so many reasons why that does not make sense. Let's start with the idea of god thanking you for praying by blowing all of your garbage all over the place. If you ask me it sounds like a warning if anything. God was clearly telling you that you don't know how to pray correctly. Instead of him using a booming voice from the sky saying "YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!", he decided to let you know how much you were angering him by blowing all of your junk off the table. It's the only explanation. It's all the proof anyone should need.......right? Next let's talk about your claimed ability to control the wind with your prayers. You just solved our energy crisis with your God proof. You can open Wind Power Generation Fields all over the Country, then you could just hire some employees to pray for kids in shifts, and you have a clean source of constant energy. Call the president. Lastly is your, what I like to call, Supernatural Glaze, claiming that the wind only acted on some items while leaving the trees and the grass motionless. Believer stories usually include a detail like this to try and shoot down the obvious solution: It was just regular old wind. Why is that detail important to God? Where are you coming from logically? Is God not capable of producing wind that affects everything in an environment? Or was he trying to show you that it was him, that he does exist, through this barley observable subtle wind differential? BTW: What is the proof of God at the bottom of the Red Sea? Although we shouldn't need it having the Wind Story and all.
First of all, saying that your logic is fueled by "his mom" does not help you when it comes to debating. Second of all, in what way does the existence of Egyptian carriages prove the existence of Moses? and in turn the existence of god?
Separate Your responses are juvenile at best. I'm going to post something from your message board that I feel relates here. MultiLockOn: Hey, I saw you posting in the religious debate about laminin, I did that exact same thing at xForgery.com, I remember one day my pastor included the same pictures you showed in the thread during a sermon. Greatjedi7: Cool! Hey would you mind helping me out over there? I've also created a group of people to separate the Christians from the Others and to try and "Convert" as many people as possible. MultiLockOn: I'm not entirely sure seperating ourselves from the rest is going to convert anybody. View Conversation Wise words from MultiLock. Do you think you are converting anyone with your lazy answers and righteous attitude or are you separating yourself?
It is impossible to find physical evidence of a "god" since it is a metaphysical entity. Truthfully, I do not know. If I assume that he is conscious an interesting question pops up. Why? "God," who is assumed to be a perfect omnipresent entity would not need anything since it is everything. If it needed something, he would be imperfect and therefore wouldn't be "God." It did not need to create the universe but it did. This is why I cant seem to wrap my head around the whole is god a conscious entity argument (I can't formulate any opinions because of this question).
jedi u hve cunvurtd me. i wus in the car last nite, and was scared I would be in a car crash, so i prayed 2 god and i dident crash. His power is awesome!! Did you see that? That is basically what you look like. I didn't get into a car crash because I didn't, not because god didn't want me to be in one. It's very rare for a car crash to happen. That's like praying to god the earth keeps turning, no matter what, it's gonna keep turning. You disgust me, and make all Christian people look like babbling idiots. Honestly, you have not given on ounce of proof during this entire debate, only bullshit and lies that "god" would not be proud of. Just shut the **** up already.
yeah finding egyptian war carriages, human, and horse bones at the bottom of the red sea proves moses existed and makes the entire bible true. that means the first woman was in fact whittled from a man's rib bone; there was a talking snake in the garden of eden; one guy actually got two of every animal on the earth and fit them all in an ark that was a few hundred feet long; and a guy did in fact survive in a giant fish for 3 days. EDIT: i couldn't ignore the wind story any type of sarcastic argument here people throw out wont prove anything to you because you dont want to see it that way. The bottom line is: People see what they want to see. You wanted to believe that wind blowing at that specific time was God. Another point: Those stories will FAIL in any debate because the opposing side DOES NOT WANT TO SEE WHAT YOU DID. Always. Why there's an argument in the first place and why you need valid points. Come in here with valid points and proof, or get out.
After reading a few pages of this entire thread, I've acknowledged that there are a LOT of atheists on this site. Not only that, but it seems that this thread was setup just so you guys could pile up your opinions on to Christian, God believing people. You know that there are little to no Christians here so you double team anyone who opposes your opinions. This is a debate so stop shoving **** down my throat. I haven't shoved anything down yours so there's no need to try it with me. The dumbass who was arguing with me about Human life was trying to tell me that scientist CAN create life; an A.I. unit. The ****? Are you being serious? I simply stated that not one scientist has ever been able to create HUMAN life and this dumby says they created A.I. units. Wow. Great job? I said human life not robotic life. As for the Red Sea findings of chariots and bones, self explainitory. It's a biblical story. That's why people are arguing about it right now. They don't like knowing that there is proof to a biblical passage that can show some existence of God. God parted the Red Sea in the story and the people passed through. The Chariots and soldiers of the Pharaoh went back after them but God let the waters fall back into place, causing those people to die. This entire response is probably going to be picked apart in a quote telling me how much of a dumby I am and I'm probably going to get flammed but THIS IS A DEBATE. Keep it clean and don't get too serious. We can still act civilized in this great debate.
Scientists actualy, if given the legal support could artificially clone a human being at this point. I was discussing this with my Biology teacher just yesterday. The only problem is that most artificial clones have a very short lifespan, so technically it wouldn't be considered at this point. Also, upon entering a religious debate, please throw all of the things you would take "offense" to out the window, or choose not to participate. Because we are not going to go out of our way to appease you in an argument about what you are getting offended about in the first place.
There are more atheists than christians in this specific thread because we're winning. (not really, but im sure there arent more atheists on the site than christians. most likely the other way around). The thing is most christians probably have enough faith to ignore these types of threads. for somebody boldly stating that 'THIS IS A DEBATE' you didn't really debate in your post or reply to anybody's argument against the bones at the bottom of the Red Sea. It could very well be true, but one true story proves nothing, like i already said.. which you ignored.