Monastery

8v8 Strongholds

Map Description

  1. Lazy Animator
    This originally started out as more of an aesthetic project when forge first came out. I was just getting used to the new controls and familiarizing myself with where everything was. I was trying to see how close I could get to a convincing Buddhist Monastery and I'm fairly pleased with the results. Originally I hadn't given too much thought to the layout for gameplay purposes, I was just trying to make something that looked good. Since I've never posted a map before I figured I might as well give it some love and spruce it up for actual play.

    Given the 3 story nature of the building I thought CTF would be out of the question. So this is primarily for strongholds and slayer. Since my object budget is so tight only red and blue teams have spawn points. I've had a few people to test on this and gotten pretty positive feedback so far. 1024 objects sounded like a lot, and it can be, but it you're like me and do finer details you can burn through that pretty fast. This is version 0.9 since I feel there will still be a few tweaks to make once more people play it and provide feedback on weapons and spawns. 2 things I'm not as confident with as I am with architecture. I'd like to do more maps in this theme down the road with better pre - planning to optimize how my budget is spent. Please download, enjoy and any feedback is greatly appreciated!
    DazeJet, BIEMANZ, ravenking91 and 3 others like this.

Discussion

  1. Ryouji Gunblade

    Ryouji Gunblade Legendary

    Messages:
    836
    Likes Received:
    1,269
    The candles, the bamboo, the architecture, all so good!
     
    Lazy Animator likes this.
  2. ImI METAL ImI

    ImI METAL ImI Ancient
    Senior Member

    Messages:
    593
    Likes Received:
    66
    Had a great time messing around on this with you a few weeks ago Lazy, I want to get some strongholds games on this bad! Cool wind chimey chandelier you added. This map is very visually striking, it wow'd me pretty good when it first loaded so good job making an immersive atmosphere.
     
    Lazy Animator likes this.
  3. Lazy Animator

    Lazy Animator Legendary

    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    36
    Thanks guys, it's been nice sharing the process with you all and I look forward to having some matches on it soon.
     
  4. Merder Smerf

    Merder Smerf UCC:Forge

    Messages:
    252
    Likes Received:
    253
    Played on this tonight in Max's lobby. I think we had 8v8 slayer.

    I think it goes without saying the aesthetic is awesome- this map is beautiful. I am choosing not to investigate your bamboo and just be in awe of it.

    Gameplay was a little less pristine. I think the overall impression for me was that it was just too big and if you're aiming for 6v6 you def need to scale it down.

    The roof area was super op and once the other team got players up there it was kind of a murder festival.

    There's kind of a lack of structure overall in that there are no room or halls really it's a big area with structural cover items. Some segmentation might help. Talk to @Captain Punch he can go into a lot better detail and explaination with that.

    So overall it's a beautiful map. There were definetly some fun encounters and good fights and the glaring issues for me would be the scale and lack of rooms or areas players can inhabit and control - and the roof should be inaccessible for sure.
     
    Lazy Animator and Captain Punch like this.
  5. Captain Punch

    Captain Punch Content Contributor
    Staff Member Administrator Wiki Contributor Senior Member The Scripter's Guild

    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    228
    I had a bit of difficulty finding the words last night, but it really feels like the structure isn't a terribly believable building, and that most of the issues stem from that.

    To set the scene for what I'm saying:
    You have 3 main levels, the bottom level, which includes the terrain surrounding the structure and the "ground" floor of the structure, the interior balcony level above that, and the "roof". Technically, you also have the roof's roof thing too, accessed by a grav lift.

    The "roof roof" is rather exploitable and is also very out of the way. A few people up there could effectively keep from getting flanked if they worked together and basically camp. There really didn't prove to be any other use for that area, I only saw people go up there to explore, rarely saw meaningful interactions, as people usually died on their way by people already there that they couldn't see, or people on other levels taking advantage of the distraction. I would remove access to that area and work to make the main roof more accessible and give players more reason to go there.

    Scale was a major issue, both for some of your aesthetic and for gameplay. The pews/benches inside were the most overscaled object by far, and really made fighting around them a pain. Scaling the entire structure down to 2/3 of it's length and width (or more) would drastically change the amount of cover provided and provide the opportunity for more interesting and less reaction-time based interactions.

    I also want to say to make the structure shorter, because the length of the staircases and visibility between levels really weighted interactions heavily in favor of being up top. I want to say it, because it would make gameplay better, but that interior looks really good as tall as it is. My rule of thumb is that, if you're looking at a higher elevation, you should be able to see the level immediately below that as often as possible. This removes issues like having to look straight up to see someone who is, horizontally, 30 ft away from you and makes it less likely that you'll be pegged by someone coming around a corner in front of you because you're gunning for someone up top.

    Other than that, line of sight was cross map way too often. You need more line of sight blockers, all over. The level has very little segmentation and it is really hurting game play. Players were constantly getting picked off by people 100+ ft away after engaging someone right up in their face; this should happen, just not as much as it did, as it takes away satisfying encounters from those looking to play a closer game, effectively turning them off and making them not want to play your level.

    I say that it doesn't feel like a believable building because it feels very much like a shell, no hallways, no rooms, just a large chamber with a balcony running around it halfway between roof and floor. It's like a boss arena from an older game, which is fine in its own, but you're not staging a boss fight. Smaller openings, more entrances, more (and more obvious) pathing between levels, meaningful interaction between the roof and the lower levels (it's currently completely cut off except for the current access point at the top of the stairs), some form of segmentation within each level (rather than using the levels to create semi-pancaked segmenting), and more free-standing structures to give players more agency to traverse and flank. If you want to go with 12 people and under, you'll also need to scale it down, a lot, as said.

    Sorry if any of that came off harsh, nothing was terrible, it just wasn't as good as it could have been. It looks great and I'm really interested in seeing it play as well as it looks.
     
  6. Merder Smerf

    Merder Smerf UCC:Forge

    Messages:
    252
    Likes Received:
    253
    This is really well thought out and constructive... (Yea I did that on purpose.)

    As you go about filling in hallways and rooms I would just offer this- my practical "rules of engagement." And I'm no great map maker so feel free to disregard all of this but:
    I rank the positions on my map in my head with a 1-3 scale for both power and risk. 1 is lowest and 3 is highest. So I try to balance. If a position has a level 3 for power (like being really high above the battle field or offering tons of cover) I try to balance it with a level 3 of risk (lots of nade banks, well powered positions with sight lines on it, sneaky pathing to assault it, etc.) in this way I attempt to balance my positions and keep them from being campable. So if there's a big box to give cover I place a wall or something behind it that players can bank nades off or if a position is high up I give it little to no cover and sight lines on at least 3 sides (and/or lots of paths to it.) just practice advice to keep in mind.

    As an aside, even tho ur getting a lot of heat from us asking youth make big changes to your map, I think you should consider that if folks are putting in this much energy to offer feedback and opinions- you must be on to something in the first place. Please consider this feedback carefully because you have a gorgeous template here dude.
     
    Lazy Animator likes this.
  7. Lazy Animator

    Lazy Animator Legendary

    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    36
    Wow, it was quite a surprise to log on today and see how much feedback was waiting for me. First it's nice to get featured in Max's weekly event, wish I had been able to get on last night. As this is my first ever publicly released map I'm even more pleased that I've gotten such well thought out and thorough feedback. I can take criticism especially when it's this constructive. Everything covered here is sure to be taken to heart and will inform my designs moving forward. Like I said in the original map description this started as an aesthetic project with very little pre-planning for gameplay. So the comments definitely reflect that and I think it would make more sense to remake this from the ground up with what I've learned as opposed to tearing this map apart. Thanks again everyone and I look forward to seeing you on the battlefield soon.

    After going back over all the advice you guys gave me it sounds like you may have been playing version 0.9. No one's fault the bookmarks are a terrible system as is the file share in general. While I do agree with the majority of what you said ie:map is very big and open, not enough cover etc. Version 1.0 has jump ups via golden boxes from rear catwalk (chandelier room) to gardens perimeter rooftops (now labeled "rampart"). As far as the the rooftop's rooftop (that was good captain punch) now called overlook, I still want that to be playable space. So what I did was shorten the bamboo in that area to create more jump ups. That way the lift is not the only way up there. I will be doing further tweaking based on these fantastic suggestions and hopefully have a preview ready tomorrow. Thanks again fellow forgers!
     
    #8 Lazy Animator, Mar 19, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2016
    Captain Punch and Merder Smerf like this.
  8. Lazy Animator

    Lazy Animator Legendary

    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    36
    Lazy Animator updated Monastery with a new update entry:

    Monastery 1.0 update

    Read the rest of this update entry...
     
    #9 Lazy Animator, Mar 19, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2016
  9. Max Extra

    Max Extra Forged Friday Founder
    Staff Member Administrator Forge Critic Senior Member

    Messages:
    547
    Likes Received:
    784
    I would normally go right in to review the map rather than commenting on it, but i feel like this one will need some more work before i do that. here are some thoughts.
    • The map looks really great and is super nice to look at! so you have that going on.
    • but the down side is looking across this beautiful map and realizing it lacks gorgeous cover.
    • the map is also very large and i think it could stand to either be scaled down.
    • additionally we played slayer since i dont remember a game type being recommended
    After some changes have been made to the cover and it plays a little better than feeling like your running around naked. ill post a review. I still loved the map it just needs a tad bit of work. i would love to see an updated version in the future on another forged friday
     
    Lazy Animator and Captain Punch like this.
  10. Lazy Animator

    Lazy Animator Legendary

    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    36
    Lazy Animator updated Monastery with a new update entry:

    Monastery version 1.1

    Read the rest of this update entry...
     
    Captain Punch likes this.
  11. Captain Punch

    Captain Punch Content Contributor
    Staff Member Administrator Wiki Contributor Senior Member The Scripter's Guild

    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    228
    I really like a lot of the changes you made.

    That said:
    That's a lot of power weapons in close proximity, but it remains to be seen how it will play. Some of your "doors" are going to be a bit campy just from looking at them. Visually, some of the walls you placed don't mesh as well as they could, but it'd take experimentation for me to give advice on what to try, aside from maybe putting in windows to give line of sight back without all of the "line of shot". Big thing though, open space under staircases outside is really feeling out of place with the theme. The active camo and CE pistol seem a bit out of the way, like people will die going for them, or right after getting them, making them feel more like bait than goals; not something I expect, just something to watch for just in case it turns out to be heavy handedly so.

    Again, never telling you what to do, just what I see.

    Big pluses:
    Scale, macro pathing, and segmentation look much better just from the short video.

    Really excited to see this one come to fruition.
     

Share This Page