You'd love to think the people he doesn't save would be criminals, but you don't know that. EDIT: Wait, what do you mean he "used" them?
If God didn't make us, thered be no sin. Yes, killing and stealing would still be bad, because morals =/= religion, but whats so great about todays justice system, is that the severity of the offense is actually taken into account, not, Killing Rampage=petty theft. Thats whats flawed there. Flawed even more than the fact that we are predestined for hell when it was God that made us flawed and gave us sin. And if Jesus died for our sins, then how come people are still born predestined for hell unless they accept God. If I don't accept you, as you said as an example, does that mean that I decide you deserve eternal punishment? Im sorry if I dont see how us, as flawed beings created flawed by God, deserve to be sent to how for being what he created us as. He might have given us a choice, but thats just it. He gave us the freewill to choose right or wrong, and we chose wrong. So how come we have to pay for that? Its his mistake for letting us choose. If I tell you that you can hang out with me all the time, but first, you must guess which hand a quater I have is in, and you choose wrong, do you deserve punishment for choosing wrong, or am I at fault because I gave you a choice knowing you could pick wrong and still let you try?
Oh God. You just said so much wrong. Source of sin is a mystery. IN GOD'S EYES =/= GOVERNMENT JUSTICE God made us PERFECT. We made us flawed. Jesus died for our sins so that we can go to Heaven when we die. Like I said, we're not created flawed by a flawed creator. Your argument is flawed, that's what that is. God isn't responsible for our choice. In the Bible it even says "You can choose life or death" do you know what the next verse says? CHOOSE LIFE! Its a one question test and he gives you the answer. Its our mistake for choosing the wrong thing, not his. Your analogy is not comparable with quarters. The fact that God said (analogy response) his quarter is in his left hand and you chose incorrectly is your fault entirely. EDIT: Adam & Eve, for example. He said "don't eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil". They still did.
Alright I might have phrased that wrong. But what I'm really getting at, is does the punishment equal the sin? Does eternal suffering in Hell compare to anything sinful that someone could do on earth? Does eating an apple when told not to really equal eternal hell for every human to ever be born unless they submit to God? Whether or not Heaven and hell are real, is God being fair with his punishment? Sorry if I'm saying this wrong or something, but I think I got it out right, idk... also, maybe its our fault for choosing sin, but when you are given curiosity + free will. Curiosity killed teh cat. Its like in a movie, when someone is afraid of heights and they are crossing a bridge and their friend says, "Dont look down". Odds are they look down. Sure they shouldnt have, but they have curiosity and free will. So they could, and usually will look down. Is that an accurate analogy, no, but I think it gets the basic idea that Im trying to convey. My main point being why is there such a harsh punishment for things not as harsh? Just asking.
The government doesn't have the power to stop every crime though. But that's assuming you think God is all-powerful. Sorry. Side note: Do you think that if a disciple, instead of Thomas, did not see Jesus then they would be the doubters? What if only Thomas saw Jesus and then told the others? Would they have believed without seeing?
While it may be an interesting read, it doesn't mean its biblically inspired. Everyone, including me, is a sinner. We sin because we are sinners. Every sin is just as repulsive in God's eyes, but there is a different level of consequence for every sin. The greatest consequence being Hell for the sin of disbelief. No other sin will get you there, but lack of faith. Hitler could even be in heaven if he had a sincere repentance before death, although I doubt he did. Ghandi is probably in Hell. It's sad to think of it, but it's the only truly fair system. Who determines what's right or how many righteous acts will earn salvation? No one, we were given a choice and told the right answer. That made me lol for how true it is. I think you need have a better understanding of sin. Imagine you walk over to your neighbors house with a group of friends. You ask your neighbor to take a walk with you. While walking your friends ransack the house of all the valuables. Your neighbor gets back in time to see this happening. So, you tie him up. Then you take his family outside and force them to watch as you burn their house to the ground with their pets inside. As the family hears the screams of the pets, you take the wife and daughter and rape them in front of your neighbor. Next you torture the son, wife, and daughter. Then shoot them one at a time. All of this you do in front of him. Finally you ask. "May I borrow some sugar for my coffee?" He gives you the sugar. Again, you're assuming that God will dictate our actions. If he did then we wouldn't have free will. He's all powerful, but He's not gonna make you choose. Contradictory to popular belief, Heaven appears more than Hell in the Bible. Blessings more than punishment, but as sinners we tend to gravitate towards the negative.
Sorry, but no. I know you like this one rusty, and I'll admit I lol'd too, but it misses the mark as a proper metaphor for this situation in many ways. True it's better than Piggelz, but still. This is basically the biggest point that irks me about Christianity (religion in general as well I suppose, but such a big deal is made about it in Christianity). The gist of my argument is: God doesn't tell you which hand it's in, not by a long shot. Believing in the bible is not the same as faith in God. Believing in the word of spiritual leaders is not the same as faith in God. Both of those are faith in people, which, whilst an important part of any religion that goes further than one person, is, once again, not the same as faith in God. God never comes up to you and tells you he exists, and when put like this it is apparent how stupid this idea is. I personally hold that the only thing you can truly believe in the sense of true faith in God alone, not in people, is what you draw from your personal relationship with God. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but to have a personal relationship with God, this being the only way you can actually be told (in a literal or effective sense, since the quarter argument was indeed a metaphor), you therefore already believe, thus meaning that he ain't telling you squat and giving you the choice. He's leaving you to find him on your own, and punishing you if you don't. Now I have looked for God, ****in' trust me. I would love for there to be such a sense of justice, of inherent love, and purpose in each and every one of us. But hell, I've never found him. I've had dark times where I've turned to look for something, anything inside of me, and I've had happy times where I've tried to see the good in situations, see something behind it, that love I mentioned before shining through. But nothing, I have honestly, despite my deep searches, never found anything which even hints towards God being inside me, in the universe, or even existing. Nothing, God hasn't 'told' me squat in the way you put forward, and now I'm supposedly going to be punished for eternity despite being subject to the misery of having no God despite me looking for him so damn hard it hurts. Yeah, right guys, compassion FTW. I know I sound aggie about this, but still, that point and how pompous, even smug (not a personal accusation to anyone in here, but it's something that I've noticed in more than a few others when this point comes up) people are about it annoys me so damn much, 'oh, you're just being stupid, you've been told the right answer'. Oh really? Well I've been told a lot of things, and what you're saying I've been told has come from humans once again (the bible cannot be taken as the word of God, again the only thing you can truly draw as true based on your faith in God is that which you personally draw from your own relationship with him, revelations if you will, read John Locke's "Of Enthusiasm" if you're interested,) trust in humans is not the same as faith in God, and tbh if it was you should logically believe unquestioningly in the good ol' Flying Spaghetti Monster. Man, Dawkins (much as he is a shameless and intensely annoying biggot who has so little perspective on human kind as an actual creature it's not true) would eat you guys alive.
Again, having a choice is super-awesome. I understand God wants people to choose to like him or not. But why have us go through the hullabaloo of life before getting to pick? You see how many religions are out there; what if an alien set down on Earth and decided to pick a religion? There are so many options, and options within those options, that no single possibility can be completely right. If God really wants us to pick yes or no, I don't see why we get punished for saying "no thanks". ("sdrfnip ajnsjklg dummy Eons, God doesn't send you to hell, you condemn yourself!" Ok, it's our own fault but why is it bad to not believe and worship God on Earth?) It's like: Here are two options; feel free to choose, but this one gets your liver eaten out for eternity. Whaaaa?
God doesn't want us to just like Him. He wants us to Love Him. The reason we have life is the same reason that human beings have children. We want someone to love. Hell is not a punishment. Hell is a place humans go as a result of their choice to be completely separated from God. Satan has chosen complete separation from God will also be suffering in hell because he chose to be completely separate from God. (Just a side note, but contrary to popular belief Satan will not be standing next to you poking you with a pitchfork, he will be in pain as well). And this is all according to what the Bible tells us.
You missed my point; "like", "love", it's just semantics. Suffering=punishment. And that was what I was addressing before. Why give us a choice to love him if choosing not to worship God sends you to Hell? Why are non-believers punished for simply questioning, even if they might be living virtuous lives?
Satan wants to take people down with him. he is the temptation and sin that we try to get away from but end up going back because it is beneficial to us whatever it may be. people dont understand that, that Satan is tempting us everyday to sin and to be unloyal to God. and since people dont know that they are fighting Satan everyday, they get farther from God and separated and start losing that love and faith in Him. the first step to finding God again is to stop sinning and look for that hope after our deaths that he brings. He isnt cruel and making us suffer now, it was our choice to sin in the first place. he made us perfect without sin and we where the image of Him as it says in the Bible, every time we sin we get separated from God and it keeps getting harder and harder to get that faith back.and that is why Christ came to save us, by becoming sin he allowed us to restore that hope and faith in God and be close. if you choose to accept Christ as your saviour, then you can have that faith again and go to Heaven.
Jesus became sin as he was on the Cross, that is why God couldnt help Jesus in that time, Jesus asked God why he had abandoned him and turned His back on him. the Bible says that Jesus became sin and if you wanted to get to Heaven, the only way is through accepting Christ and God's forgiveness. i dont know why we will see Jesus in Heaven, it just says that in the Bible.
A multi-layered Hell could suggest a multilayered Heaven. That would suggest a caste-like system of living for eternity based on... a meager average of 80 years of life. Huh? (Btw, think about how very boring sitting around for eternity is.) ......So where does questioning end, and arguing begin? Maybe by arguing vehemently, I reveal answers for myself. I'm not arguing against ideas, I'm arguing against presenting those ideas as fact. I don't like it when beliefs are stated as divine truth. And, If you just accept every point up there, then there is no debate right? ......True, this debate is about God's existence, but my questions still pertain to that topic. What kind of God exists? Why? (I might have missed it, but did you answer why a virtuous non-believer would not be able to enter Heaven?)
because obviously they would have no faith which is required for Heaven. you need to accept Christ, entering this world to take away our sins so that we could see God and live forever in paradise, in order to have faith that you can get to Heaven.
Cool, so even if I give all my money to the poor, give encouragement and respect to others, I still burn for not having complete faith in God. That's what you just said. Why so? Why so? Why so? Why so?
Problem with that statement is that you're comparing eternal happiness on earth to eternal happiness in Heaven.
Yep, I know it's not necessarily what you believe. But here is an example to show my main point: You run a race poorly one day. Your coach gets mad and says you must now run many laps every day all day for the summer while all the others who raced well get to sit and drink... Gatorade I guess. Summer is a long time, but not anywhere near eternity. ......I also know that you are more open with your mindset; it's something I guess I admire about you. I was you when I came to this site; I just decided not to really believe any of Christianity and instead leave the door open for any possibility. ......So why tell me to debate if God exists or not? We can't really know either. So what is eternal happiness in Heaven aMoeba?
I should've said happiness on earth is different than happiness in Heaven. Earth = temporary / happiness can be ruined at any moment Heaven = eternal / happiness never ruined, no pain / perfect world - forever