What if I was starving and the only thing available for food was a person? Just some random guy? And amoeba said no statues are allowed at all, yet there they are.
Even starving Africans don't kill each other for food (Cannibalism). So I don't know why you bring this up. Just let yourself die then kill another human.
I'm saying, if the Pope hasn't "disowned" any churches for having statues, then what's the deal? This point was for amoeba, since he said "no statues period". And I'm just saying: What if you had to do something sinful in order to live or save others?
We also have the theodice problem, stated by David Hume: If the evil in the world is intended by God, he is not good. If it violates his intentions, he is not almighty. God can't be both almighty and good. There are many objections to this, but none that holds since God is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil. Besides, if only God can create he must have created evil. If somebody else (the devil) created evil, how can one know that God, and not Satan created the universe? (link to citation) Call me stupid but I think belief is a good thing, even if god is not real, it gives people hope and morals. I personally belive god and other entitys do not exist. People search for reasons why things are the way they are, if they can't find a reason, then they think "God did it." A prime example of this is the greeks and all their theories, I don't recall all of them but they thought all matter was made up of earth, fire, wind, and water. If you told them that at the time, they would say "Prove it."
Tolerance Damning every other religion's followers and non-believers all to hell for eternity hardly seems like disagreeing with respect. example: "I respect your position, but have fun burning for ever." My accused disrespect is, at the most, satirical. I do not think Christians, or Muslims or anyone else will suffer an ultimate amount of endless pain because they do not think like me. Disrespecting your beliefs with words like "silly" and "ridiculous" cannot compare to mentally and verbally casting me off into hellfire. This is one of the fundamental issues I have with most religions. I am dumbfounded by religion and may use language that expresses my amazement, but at the end of the day I tolerate religious people and hope they lead fulfilling lives and if there is an afterlife I hope they are happy there, too. Christians think my Atheist soul will perish after I die and I will endure some sort of unimaginable, endless torture. Who is intolerant? You're right about the cow analogy. It probably wasn't the most literal analogy. I never said it wasn't necessary to teach that killing is wrong. I did suggest that, giving myself as an example, it can and should be done with total separation from any stories about the afterlife, heaven, hell, and anything else we have absolutely no knowledge about. What would be wrong with people gathering every Sunday at community centers, where a group leader would engage in stories about the importance of taking the moral high ground in every situation. The groups could eat cookies and sandwiches during a break and even organize charity work for their communities. How did all of the positive aspects of going to church get so hopelessly intertwined with a claimed knowledge about what happens after you die or before we were on this planet. Morals should be taught without telling children that people from other religions will burn in hell if they don't accept Jesus. I agree that humans are not born good. They are also not born evil. Every person regardless of their religious affiliation is capable of horrible moral behavior. I am debating how we instill positive guidance without breeding hatred for people who are different from ourselves. We are now living in the 21st Century and it just feels like we would have been able to come up with a way to teach morals that is a little more coherent and more inclusive. I would love to go to church and participate with my community, but I can't get over so many aspects of it that make no sense to me, and it seems to condemn every one that doesn't belong. Sometimes it is my objective to offend, as it is often the only way to break through the overshield of Christian beliefs. However, as I have stated earlier, I am confident that I am much more tolerant of Christianity than it's followers are of me or anyone who does not subscribe to their views. My bad. I would probably be beheaded for that in some circles. Ahh, religious intolerance
"You're wrong I'm right" doesn't work in a debate thread. You go on describing that sin does not exist and don't even bother to give me any logic or evidence to believe you? Should I just accept those lies with blind faith as I once did? NO. Things that make Islam illogical: -The Quran is a form of heresy to The new and old covenant, Muhammad was extensively exposed to each covenant before he had his "revelations." He flat out stole five of the books, then changed some names. (Noah>Gilgamesh) -The Apostle's writings are proven to be written by them, Peter's house was found, tablets were inscribed Peter on it. Paul's writings are credited to him in many other historical records outside of the Bible, especially the early church leaders,some of which knew him. -It involves a "cargo God," as I like to call them, their God is expected to deliver them some kind of prosperity, as if the God existed to serve them, instead of the opposite. By the way, I wasn't raised Christian.
I am going to make this very simple to you. In order to beieve in God, you have to have Faith. Without it, God is nothing becaus you can not see him or talk to him in person. But God is real, and in order to really understand where I am coming from, you would have to go to church and most importantly have Faith
@Prosper, correct me if I'm wrong, but did you say that you won't believe something makisupa said because he gave no evidence, and you aren't going to just accept with blind faith? That's exactly what religion is though... accepting the fables and stories told by the bible, or whatever religion you believe in, with blind faith and no evidence. So maybe I read that statement wrong... but I think you contradicted the idea of religion there...
Can we just put this issue to rest? Would you agree that the most overwhemingly crucial factor in determining what religion you will subscribe to is Family followed in a close second by Geography? Sure there are going to be examples where someone did not turn out to be the same religion as their parents(apparently, Prosper gave every religion of the world equal scrutiny and study time and decided to go with Christianity because it made the most sense to him), but can we agree that it is the single most important factor that determines what a child will believe?
If only they were fables. If they were fables, then nobody would believe them. /durr It seems as if many atheists seem to think Christians are some sort of idiot because they believe stories, but its quite the contrary, considering the same atheists probably have never tried understanding the bible. I hope you know what a parable is. Nearly every parable Jesus told is still used as moral teaching, Christian or not. Oh but of course you will try to tell me that these parables have already been told by some persian dude who was a great teacher and was born on december 25 and had a father who was a carpenter.
What separates other religious stories from yours? It seems as if you think other religions are full of idiots because they believe stories, but in fact that same argument can be applied to you. If you were part of another religion, you'd just say that other religions' texts were fables. And it is because we've tried to understand the bible that we have become atheists. Just because you were once atheist doesn't mean you know why we're debating. You said before that you became Christian once a friend of yours gave you reasons to believe in Christianity that you couldn't refute. That means you were an atheist not because you questioned religion and saw its faults, but because you didn't know religion. I'm not here to tell anyone to stop believing in things. I just want to know why you'd peddle your beliefs off as fact.
Respect Although, I don't think I have a soul, and am therefore unafraid of any threats I may receive from Christians as to it's destination, I do think it is unhealthy behavior for this type of deep seeded demonizing of non-Christians to be taught as god's word. I can see how poking fun at what I view to be hilarious origin and afterlife stories can be offensive, but I still wish you all the best, and if you have a soul, I wish it the best, too. Whether it is spoken or unspoken, in this life or the next, when a Christian damns another human being to endless suffering, even if it is just on the inside, I believe that is unhealthy for the person doing the damning. There are surely unwanted side effects that come with this absolute belief in superiority. Definitely. I think we should "borrow" the best parts of religion(community, moral guidance, charity, and self sacrifice) and leave out the miracles, self righteousness, zombies, invisible geniuses, heaven, hell, and giant effigies of a man bleeding on an ancient torture device. Unfortunately, it would never work. To get butts in those pews and money in that collection plate you need the threat of eternal punishment and the promise of absolute reward. We're like children really. I would argue that this type of extreme condemnation can not simply be wished upon another's afterlife, but that it spills over into other aspects of their life and behavior possibly with out them even being aware of it. It is the strongest hatred you can have for another human.....wishing that their eternal soul spends all time in pain. Not every Christian thinks all non believers will burn in hell, but the vast majority do - I will put this disclaimer in so you don't think I am generalizing. Although in these debates when you are looking at broad concepts, religion and god being two of the broadest, you sometimes have to speak in general terms with the knowledge that what both parties are saying is not true in every single circumstance. ^I guess I just spoke a little on generalizing above. I don't think those statements, as written, are true, but with a small adjustment: 1. Most Christians are intolerant. 2. Most Atheists are tolerant. Most meaning over 50%. I could stand by that, although we seem to have a disagreement on what intolerance is and what type of intolerance outweighs another. Language can get in the way of a good debate sometimes because I feel we are both right about portions of defining intolerance. I will definitely try and pull back offensive statements about Christianity. I honestly don't respect religion in general. My comments come off as offensive because the whole thing is taken so seriously. Remember the controversy over a political cartoon depicting Mohammad in 2005. If you are so absolutely certain that you have chosen the correct path laid out by god and that every one else is wrong or even worse, a messenger of the devil, it is very easy to get offended. I am nowhere near as easily offended because I only accept what can be proven and do not hold any sacred convictions. It is true about both. The difference is that Atheists do not condemn any foreigners or non-Atheists to an endless soul torture at the end of their lives. Many religions, including Christianity do this. The point about the vast majority of children naturally accepting whatever their parents tell them in whatever land they where born in is relative because you should then see that it is not really a choice for children of the world and they should not spend an infinite amount of time suffering for something they had no control over. The people across the sea from you are people across the sea from you. The people across the sea from you are people across the sea from you. The people across the sea from you are people. This has already tried to be spun by aMoeba with the statement: Convenient.
You are not alone in that fear. I think at some point everyone comes to terms with their mortality. My experience was similar to yours. I remember a moment of sheer panic when I realized that someday I would cease to exist. I would become nothing. I also had similar thoughts about blackness and a void and not being able to sense anything at all. That was a defining moment for me, but with time(alot of time, as I dealt with these questions and fears when I was pretty young) the thought didn't frighten me as much. A comforting thought that my parents gave to me was to picture how I felt before I was born. I didn't have any feeling, memory, or experience of anything at all. The thought of going back to that same state, the same state I came from, was comforting to me. As I got a little older the concept that frightened me even more was eternity. Trying to picture how I would exist in and eternal state forever whether in heaven or hell became a more frightening concept. How would I remain content forever in heaven with nothing to compare it too. The trying times in our lives are what make the peaceful, happy moments truly register as heavenly. Without any pain or struggle, how would I appreciate existence. Hell is frightening by itself for obvious reasons, but it lacks the same logical balances that would not allow you to truly feel the pain because of the infinite length of time it is inflicted and also because you would have no positive experiences to compare your eternal state to. My comfort is in going to the same place I came from, the same place we all come from, and the place we will all go. How can that place be bad? Even if it is nothingness. A zombie is a corpse that is brought back to life through supernatural forces. Oh, I just got an idea for an Christian themed infection gametype. I am sorry about your experiences with Atheists. I certainly do not think you are stupid. You are actually very logical in your approach to belief and your church sounds like it is more progressive and less fundamentalist. I do not know much about the various denominations, admittedly. I think I did use the word wishing in an earlier post, and I realize that all Christians do not wish hell upon you. I also understand that God, in your view, is the one who does the condemning. It is a Christian's complacency with this view, a quiet agreement that is reason enough for my accusations of intolerance.
1) People believe fables all the time... look at every other religion in the world.. 2) While I wouldn't call Christians stupid, I would say that from my own personal experience they are less intelligent than atheists. I actually made a graph once, with intelligence on the y axis and religiousness on the x. I started off by putting myself near the non-religious end and near the intelligent end (Top left). I then went around and asked my friends to draw a point for themselves on it, basing their decisions off of the other points on the graph. The line of best fit was a direct correlation between how religious you are and how unintelligent you feel that you are. ( looked like '\'). Again, this is just my personal experience. 3) Of course we will tell you that, it's true. The stories of the bible were not unique. Yes, they have a moral behind them, but that doesn't mean that it created those morals. People have argued before that without religion (specifically, the bible), we would be immoral. This has been proven false. First, we know that atheists are in fact moral people. There is no disputing the evidence. Also, we don''t get our morals from the bible. If we did, we would still believe everything the bible tells us. Instead, we get our morals from the environment around us, and then accept the ones from the bible that we agree with. There's no need to be afraid of death. Really, death is just the electric signals in our brain and body stopping. You can't imagine what it would be LIKE to be dead, because it isn't like anything. Once you are dead you don't think or feel, you are no more alive than my iPod. To put it simply, death isn't anything to be feared- if it happens to you in your sleep one night, you can't be sad about it, because you won't even know it happened. I am both an atheist and the happiest person that I know. The reason why is because about a year ago, I realized that there isn't any point in being nervous or tense or unhappy or grumpy. I have realized that the point in life is whatever you want it to be; in my case, I want to be as happy as possible. There's no point in being nervous over something- if it's going to happen no matter what, I would rather forget about it until the time comes. Same for being unhappy- why dwell on the bad when you can go play some matchmaking with friends?
I used to be Christian. My intelligence hasn't gone up since (or rather, because) I made a switch. True, your graph and your personal experience might say otherwise, but that doesn't hold a candle to what the real world is like; it's much more complex. (Really though, a graph?) Only as much as the next guy.
1) Again, that's only from my own personal experience. I don't think that changing from being religious to atheist makes you any more intelligent, but if you are willing to question your opinions in the first place, you may be smarter. 2) Indeed, most people are moral people.