Do people not acknowledge the power of the universe itself and nature? Nature has the power to create things, although it is not alive. "We" yes, you and I, and everything else living and nonliving is part of nature, and this universe. We were not created. Nothing was created. In the beginning, there was the universe and nature. Nature being the system in which every is carried out, and the universe being nature's playing field. The Law of Conservation of Matter states that matter cannot be lost of gained, merely converted into something else. Nature only has enough resources for so many things. This is why lives are limited. Everything has a time limit, because everything is always changing, or converting. When we as humans reproduce, we use parts of ourselves to make a base for a new organism, (or baby) and it then uses food to become a baby. Babies look nothing like the food you eat (well ok sometimes they do ) this is because the food is converted to make the baby. So why is it that we had to be created to be here? Nature has this power to convert itself into whatever is needed at the time that benefits nature, however its why organisms benefit nature that is the question that led to our existence. Ecosystems are a good example of why this would be needed. The light from The Sun allows weather to happen, evaporating the water and then areas of High and Low pressure in the atmosphere create wind to move these clouds and spread water around. Without this, nothing could be alive as we know it today. It is because of this that we are here, that this Earth is here. The Law of Conservation of Energy can be interchanged with the Law of Conservation of ____. This means that all energy and momentum is converted, not created. God could not give off this energy of his and convert parts of himself into everything in the universe today, because then he would not be perfect. We are nature, and nature is us. We are all part of one giant organism, that's just the way it is. And besides, were God to exist he would be a supernatural entity, meaning he would not be a part of nature. So don't try and make the argument that we are part of God, because then we would not be part of nature.
You can't use conservations laws to disprove existence of God. Conservation laws are all dependent on a closed system. This argument may be generalized to any God, but if you haven't noticed, all we're debating about is the Christian God.
It's kind of strange how Jesus only focused on this tiny part of the world while he was alive. It's good he trusted people back then enough to spread his stories accurately.
If he needs US to spread his will, that proves he is not perfect. If he was perfect, he could spread his will perfectly among human kind, with no objection, because he is perfect. The fact that he needs his imperfect creation, a failure of his because we aren't perfect, then that proves he isn't perfect, and so he isn't God, and God doesn't exist.
The funny thing about god arguments is that you can replace the word 'god' with anything, and they are just as effective. Watch: Becomes: I just proved the existence of the perfect muffin... That reasoning proves that your definition of god is wrong, not that god exists..
I can use every argument that you use for god. The Muffin IS the perfect Muffin. It transcends the laws of reality (just like god) and is eternal. It tastes perfect to everyone, because it IS perfect, as my arguments proved. No matter what you like and dislike, the Muffin will taste delicious. We can't conceive how it could be possible for everybody to like it, but that is just because the muffin is not bound by the laws of nature. Either accept that there is an eternal muffin or accept that that your argument doesn't work.
Just curious, is omniscience included in the definition of god? Despite you ignoring everything I had to say on the subject of this I will say for the third time that perfection is not an ontology. "That which no greater can be conceived" is not an ontology. Why is it more perfect to exist than to not exist?
You are right, perfection is subjective in anything that is physical, because you can see, smell taste, etc.. What you said at the beginning though, about the "deserving" going to heaven. I strongly disagree. I thought you were a Christian, or are you just a theist? Onto imperfect creation...God gave us the choice to be perfect and love God, or sin and entertain our brains with his non-existence, worship statues or, "alah." No one deserves to go to heaven we all chose sin (name someone who hasn't sinned, I dare you) but he loves so much he still gave us another chance. We are not worthy of his love, we creatures of evil, deserving no less than Hell. Nitrous: What may I ask, is an "ontology."
See, this is why no one knows who goes to Heaven. You know? What if Billy Joel is right and only the good die young?
Like a Muslim The choice that you say faces all of mankind(not just Americans) is to be perfect and love God(Jesus) or to sin by even entertaining the fact that he may not exist. You also say you are doomed if you worship a statue(unless it's a statue of Jesus I'm guessing) or if you worship Alah. Why is it a sin for a child born in Baghdad to worship the same way as his parents? He doesn't know any better. He has a silly religion of his own and has had no exposure to your ridiculous beliefs. You do realize you have a lot in common with Muslim fundamentalists. You both think that the other is worshiping a false god, you call each other "sinners" and "infidels". You think there cannot possibly be any other explanation for the existence of the universe other than the one you learned growing up. Without stubborn, outdated religions would we be engaged in as much violence in the middle east as we are? Oh, and I will dare to name someone that hasn't sinned: everyone ever born. Sin does not exist. It is an arbitrary definition of moral behavior based on your religion's ancient interpretation of reality. Is it a sin for a Lion to kill a Zebra? No, we are animals that have evolved on this planet the same as all others. The difference for us is that we are the "lucky" ones who made it to the top of the food chain and also the only ones who have developed significant enough brain power to have empathy for our fellow man. It is not a sin to kill another human being, but that doesn't mean you should kill. There are reasons not to kill other than the fear of burning for all eternity in a lake of molten fire. My moral standings have had absolutely nothing to do with any religion throughout my entire life, but I still understand what is morally wrong. For me it did not take the incredible fear of hell or abundant promises of heaven to become a good person. Because I don't claim to know what happens to me after I die, I am filled with an urgency to do what's right, enjoy my life, and make sure everyone around me enjoys theirs as well. This could be all we have together. Maybe Christianity is a cure for people who would not be able to control themselves morally unless instilled with the fear of high, everlasting temperatures beneath the ground. Sin is a word that was made up by people. From now on every time you forget to floss after you brush your teeth that will be known as a "snark". If you continue to "snark" without repenting to the hygiene lord "Gingival" you will be slowly dissolved in a bottomless sea of mouthwash after you die. If you teach this story to a child as truth you will probably get the child to floss more, but at what price? If the child grows up to be intolerant of others and threatens foreigners and non "Gingival" believers with the eternal pain of dissolving in a wintergreen sea of death. Was it really worth it to get him to floss his teeth? I claim no one has sinned, because sin does not exist, unless you choose to accept you are a pitiful snarking mortal.
I won't bother replying to the rest of your post, but I will to the first paragraph. 1. Definitely. 2. No statues, period. 3. You are using a false example. The Bible says that all men will have a chance to "hear" or "witness" his works, and become a Christian, regardless of childhood or not. That is why the Bible also mentions that children who cannot make decisions on their own will go to heaven when they die. 4. I'm pretty sure Muslims took the Bible (mostly the Torah), called Jesus a prophet, and made a new God, who is above the God the Bible states.
Why won't you respond to the rest of his post? I'm going to guess that you or another christian would dismiss that as something completely incorrect and different from the ideas of your religion, so if it is so easy to prove wrong, and you are supposed to be trying to prove your point here, why not just prove it wrong then, if its so simple to?
Uh, no, because I have to get to my next class soon, and I need to check other things like my e-mail and such. Its lunch time where I am.
Snarker! Don't forget to floss after you eat lunch for it is a snark not to floss after every meal. We are all snarkers under the lord Gingival and an acidic, minty death awaits all who refuse to accept Ginigival into their lives and admit that they have snarked against him. After eating the apple, Adam and Eve failed to floss and mankind fell out of favor with Gingival. It is that original snark that causes us all to be born snarkers. Edit: Wow, aMoeba! 141 posts in the God debate in just 4 weeks. You are officially the leader of the Christian movement.......on this thread anyway.
Actually Muslims believe in the same god, just that Mohammed was the last prophet. And Christians don't believe that Mohammed was a prophet, simple as that. Kind of strange though, as the Qur'an is the most historically accurate text in all existence...
If the church really really didn't want people praying to statues, then churches wouldn't put them out in the first place. What if I killed makisupa for food? He's a friend, so is that ok? Don't worry, it's just for food.
They put the statues (Depending on which, I will be referring to the Jesus on the Cross statues) for symbolism and to represent the church as a house of God father of Jesus who was crucified. Killing another human is wrong, that is why animals were put in the world... For food.