If you want a really scientific answer, read Prosper's recent post in the creation vs evolution. It has to deal with this. However, I will answer it myself as well. God exists out of time, matter, and energy. Why can't God exist? God created everything. God existed before time. Time was created (something cannot start after an infinite amount of time, therefore time must have been created). Time is a change in matter or energy. The reason matter can't come from nothing is because it needs a start. God made it. So if this proves that there is a God, we must determine which one. Obviously the Biblical one. Now what book was written by God? The Bible. And what book is full of prophesies that more than one person have predicted and came true? The Bible. Read the book of daniel (my name, yaay) in the Bible. His predictions came to pass, but God gave him those thoughts. What makes you think they're true Christians? War is natural, even God does war. So this is obviously right in his morals. But are we really fighting for God in the middle east? And are our soldiers really Christian (ALL of them), do they believe the same thing, the RIGHT thing, God advised the Israelites to take Canaan by war, because God wasn't going to intervene, he doesn't do that. Do you know why the Israelites took over canaan? Because they obeyed God. 10 spies of the 12 said it would be impossible. Exactly why majority doesn't always win. And in this case, the so called Christians fighting wars in the middle east. If it God's plan for them, they would. Also, Christians are different from mormons, they took our Bible, salvaged it, and crafted a new one. No thanks, those guys don't believe the same way we do (In many aspects, not all). Honestly, are you calling me arrogant for caring that people have eternal torment? I don't want people to have eternal death. If I could kill myself to stop it, I sure would. But Jesus already did that. Did I compare God as an escape though? No. I compared it to the fact most people don't bother trying what would be good for them. Greek mythology had no structure. It was written from men's minds, not God. Although this is irrelevant, why do you capitalize hell and not the Bible? Away from that. Response to edit 1: Sure its not fair. But you can't create a scenario, because it doesn't work like that. Everyone will hear of this religion called Christianity, then Christ will come, once we've all had our chances. Edit 2: Exactly. If he had such good morals wouldn't it only make sense to become a Christian, because all it supports is becoming more like Jesus, who was perfect in terms of morality? This statement is over used and foolish. You can have all the good morals you like, but if you don't ask to be saved, you never will be, no matter how good of a person you are. If you're dangling off the edge of a cliff and your buddy is sitting in the car waiting for you to come back, although he knows not where you are he will not naturally come to save you until you have cried for help.
If I say that god has a wife, who also exists outside of time, matter, and energy, do I prove that she also exists? Edit: He wrote a lot of books.
...Listen, if anything, don't lose your faith over this. [FONT="] Your concept of infinity is flawed. Assuming your concept is correct this is my rebuttal: If you have an infinite god an infinite amount of time must pass before this point in order for that infinite god to have created us. The objection being that god is outside of time and therefore time is an irrelevancy. One could argue that there is a lack of evidence for this point or this is just a case of special pleading but I digress. Now it may be true that god is outside of time, it would certainly put god out of the grasp of science but one could interject, instead of god, a natural explanation such as symmetry orders as described in Mandelbrot sets or higher dimensional space in which time does not effect. I could even be so bold to say that an infinite timeline was created with an infinite selection pattern and we just happen to be one of those infinities created. But let's not toy with such trivialities. Are you aware of the mathematical process known as division? Division takes a number and places a specific amount of that number within a specific amount of groups. Let's assume you have just taken a breath. Are you aware that an infinite amount of infinitely small increments (or groups) of time have just passed? How can this be? How is it logical that an infinity has passed before a finite second could occur? It is because infinity is not a measure of time, it's a concept. Did we complete the infinite timeline or did we ever begin? Infinity is a tricky subject to handle because it requires extreme cooperation on the behalf of the student and even then my teachings are subject to my own limitations. The best way to describe infinity is as a repeating cycle. The ancients believed as above, so below. Where they saw death they saw birth and reincarnation and a cycle of brilliance and majesty that spanned infinity and started all over. The concept of infinity has been wrestled with since man's ability to ponder such questions was brought about and I don't intend on claiming to know or giving you all the answers. When we divide infinity by anything other than 0 we find it equals infinity. The only other number that when divided or multiplied by any number other than 0 that comes out to be itself is 0. 0 an infinity share the same mathematical traits that no other numbers share. Maybe, just maybe infinity is just a rewording of 0. Another way to say there is nothing. The cycle of infinity begins where it ends but it never ends because it never begins. Think about it. [/FONT] You argue that the extreme complexity of the world is cause for something even greater in complexity to create it. If we must rely on greater and greater complexities then we run into the point where god must have a creator and his creator must have a creator and so on and so on. The best way to word this would be that the universe was not designed for us, we were designed for it. The immense complexities and mathematics used in physics are only figments, very accurate figments. They are a way to describe the universe, not a way to prescribe or control the universe. The universe has no complexities. It will behave the way it will behave. The complexities arise when a conscious observer attempts to describe the behavior. There lies your problem, though. You believe consciousness can only be begot by consciousness. Therein lies your second problem. God is conscious or sentient as you worded it. Where did god get his sentience from? He didn't. He always was. But, while we're on the subject, riddle me this: did god create himself? No. He had no control over himself coming into existence or always existing. He had no control over whether he would be emotionally and intellectually intricate. He had no control over whether he would be naughty or nice or whether his will would be effective or ineffective. God is random, necessarily. I may have lost you, at this point, due to an "nuh uh!" moment. Just think it over, it makes sense. Back to my point. God had no control over himself or his properties always existing, it just happened that way. If consciousness only begets consciousness then what begot god's? The answer being consciousness is not only begot by consciousness. Consciousness, in and of itself, is not different that a rock coming from magma or light coming from the sun. It is a natural byproduct of the mind and, as science will tell you, the brain evolved and life began at some point, therefore at some point the brain must not have existed if it is a product of natural processes. It would imply that consciousness can be beget by nonconsciousness.
He was always there. Like I said, God exists outside of time, something can't appear after an infinite amount of time, he had to have always been there.
A collection of randomly capitalized words, and then you say I have to do the research in order to prove your point? You don't get to do that, you have to provide your own evidence, or else we all get to ignore it. If you're referring to the death and resurrection of Jesus as a fulfilled prophecy, then I would like to as politely as possible laugh in your face. It is extraordinarily easy to fabricate stories in order to fit with stories that came before them. Ask Hollywood about sequels. Multiple authors telling the same tale is not a good proof either, because the stories weren't written until years later, when word of mouth had already spread the major parts of the story. I did the googling for you anyway, and there are a few sites that point at fulfilled prophecies as proof, chiefly among them the returning of Israel to the Jews. Have you ever heard of a self-fulfilling prophecy? Jews and Christians gave over Israel to the Jews, in fulfillment of a prophecy that both groups believed would take place anyway. There have been no events that took place exactly as the Bible said they would which could not have been influenced by the Bible having been written. Nostradamus has a far better track record if you ask me, his prophecies were written vaguely enough and in large enough quantity that several have come true pretty accurately. Perhaps you should look into worshipping him? Of course, you won't do that, you're simply subscribing to any set of evidence that seems to support your views you were raised with. This is called confirmation bias, when any and all new information is interpreted as supporting preexisting beliefs, and contrary evidence is ignored. You have to be very conscious of your own thoughts in order to catch yourself doing it, because it is something people just naturally do unconsciously. Go out and hunt for things that prove you wrong, and consider them from as neutral a standpoint as you can. Examine the evidence for your specific set of Christianity, for Judaism, for atheism, for Scientology, for Islam, for Hinduism. If you can honestly and rationally do that and come to the conclusion that the beliefs you happen to have been born into with your family are correct, then you ought to write a book on the subject because you're the first. Every religion claims the same things yours does, that they've got the answer to where we all came from, what happens when we die, and what we're supposed to do while we're here. Every religion has their books from some divine source. Every religion claims miracles and answered prayers but cannot perform any as proof. None can back up their claims, so I stand by my position that all religions are simply collections of stories attached to odd rituals and with some worthwhile moral teachings to be found amid all the junk.
How is he just, "Always there."? Something must have made him, Nothing can come from nothing, as people have said in this thread.
So, since we don't believe in God we're fools?(I'm honestly asking if that's what you mean by that statement.) That can easily be inverted, you're a fool for believing a fairy tale. As we learn more and more about science, we can prove so much about the bible wrong.
I like how you continuously post passages. I don't believe the Bibles so those has no affect on me. BTW, as you put in bold lettering, haters of god. How can I hate something that doesn't exist?
Assuming his concept is correct, then God exists outside of time. How then do you claim God is infinite? Furthermore, how can infinity stop(or should I say pause), and repeat itself? If infinity can only begin how can it end? If you are right, and by stating that last sentence, you're saying the concept of infinity is a fallacy, correct? How then would you say an infinite amount of infinitely small increments have passed in a finite time, if you claim infinity is a logical fallacy? @Brad: Nothing made him. Big whoop. Our minds can't wrap around the fact of something always being there, or the concept of infinity itself, we can't see the end of infinity, no matter how hard we try. Try to think of something in the universe that had always been there. Its impossible. Our minds only mediate in the universe, and if God exists outside of it, that is all the reason for seeing that he does truly exist. @Ladnil: "Every religion claims miracles and answered prayers but cannot perform any as proof. " I don't care how many people say this, but even if miracles were performed (I mean honestly, go to youtube, they've even got some there) you would always deny it as chance, and the likelihood of it. I've seen a crippled man healed and then walk on his own. Is this not the doings of a sort of miracle? Or did his body miraculously heal itself? Either way, its a miracle, that could only have been done by something that is omnipotent.
Strange- different sites show the passages as being different. Next time I see a bible I'll check out the passages and see what it actually says. What's A Scope? brings up a good point, though. There's really no point in arguing the morals of the Bible- they have nothing to do with god's existence. Show some proof, please.
I have. In fairness, I was a believer when I read it but the knowledge is with me nonetheless. You should probably get on that. Reading the bible isn't hard, it's a fairly brisk read through the old testament but Acts is an absolute drudgery...ugh. Anyway, typical atheist rebuttal to theist about his lack of a desire to read the word of god shows that he isn't a true believer. I think we'd all agree on that. Peace.
The Bible has multiple translations. Take it or leave it, you might refute it, based on my past debates with atheists. However, you might not, so I won't assume yet. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBa3gkl6wAQ There's plenty more if you'd like. Oh and if you're wondering, I don't have a camera out taking a picture of a boy walking, because I didn't have it already out, and a picture before it wouldn't do it justice either. Before you ask for a possibility of video, there you have it.
Because infinity must exist at some point. If you disagree I'm going to need some serious philosophical evidence. I never said it began but it seems to end all the time. I raise the point again: an infinite amount of time passed between your post an my reply so long as we count it in infinitely small increments. Let's have fun with this. Say you were of the mindset that said infinity repeated itself, how would you think it would happen? I never said it was a fallacy, you did. The concept of infinity is very real.
I have just one more question. How does infinite time pass between my post and your reply? Infinite time doesn't end. And if it was in such small increments, could not it continue? Maybe my mistake then, because it seemed like when you stated "The cycle of infinity begins where it ends but it never ends because it never begins. " that you completely contradicted yourself and made the concept of infinity sound arbitrary.
I didn't want to just say that it was probably just chance, or the placebo effect. I took a few minutes to investigate, and I found that CNN had actually done an article on Benny Hinn. It speaks for itself.
Its not a contradiction. If something begins where it ends but never ends because it never began what does it equal to? Imagine a circle. A circle begins where it ends but it never ends because it never begins. A line never begins because at any given point it stretches into infinity in both directions. Draw a circle. Tell me where the circle begins (not where you began drawing). Tell me where it ends (not where you ended drawing). The beginning and the end of the circle are in the same spot because all points on a given circle are all equal candidates for being the beginning and the end. An infinitely small increment of time could never progress anywhere because it is infinitely small. Two infinitely small increments of time are infinitely small. An infinite amount of infinitely small increments of time are infinitely small. Therefore, an infinite amount of time has passed an infinite amount of times and it will do so for infinity.
"Only 66 miracles have been confirmed." I think that speaks for itself. Did you not say if only there was minor proof you would not doubt a miracle? So then I hope this is enough. Though miracles prove God or whatnot, God doesn't need to prove himself through miracles. If you say that those 66 miracles are false, however, then you are denying what you just got your information from. Good job on your first statement. This one I will question. If a breath has infinitely small increments that are infinitely small an infinite amount of times then does that mean humans have the power to create time?