I haven't posted here in quite some time. Prepare yourselves, folks. This'll be a 'bigun. 1. You might want to read a different translation. NIV: 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 2. That's just how it is. God can't save us if we don't ask. 3. Obviously sin fails to agree with the laws of God, God's will and laws do not promote sin. 4. What i'm trying to say is God isn't INFINITELY wrathful or vengeful, in fact he isn't vengeful at all. And frightening? The egyptians were frightened of the plague because their worst nightmare had come upon them - and their ignorance didn't help. I've stated this previously, OT should be used for nothing for than history.[/quote] 1. Again, I'm still not seeing how this unequivocably proves that sin is a 'mystery'. Maybe I'm just misreading it, but it seems to me that this isn't referring to someone who's CONTROLLING the power of lawlessness, but rather someone who's keeping the full brunt of this 'power' from being realized. It might be useful to take the verse in context, as well. 2. That's not an acceptable response. An Atheist will not ask something they do not believe to exist to save a soul they don't believe they have- that makes absolutely no sense. If someone is a good enough person, I'm sure God can forgive the fact that they didn't believe he existed for a few years in their life- really, a flash in the dark for him as he's been described. I still say he sounds needlessly vindictive if such is not the case. 3. My core argument here isn't that sin fails to agree with the laws of god- that's a given. The argument is that, as sin is defined as disobeying god, obviously the concept that God is without sin is arbitrary since it is impossible for a being to disobey themself. 4. Perhaps 'infinitely' was something of a misnomer. However, God's behaviour between OT and NT is still rather paradoxical. Furthermore, The Old Testament is still a part of the book that you call The Bible. Just saying that it should only be used for history doesn't make sense-you're saying that we should just ignore God's behaviour in the Old Testament? That's like saying "Oh, my kid killed some cats when he was six, but that's in the past now so let's not worry about it.". As well, If it's to be 'used for history' that means that, historically, God was, if not vengeful, at least incredibly wrathful- he struck down his enemies, the OT makes various references to how those who would stand against him will perish, etc. Doog Nit Yes. The Bible is a man-made book which was written in God's words. Although not everything was written was it was meant to be, it is as close to God's teachings as possible. Yes it has inconsistencies and mistakes, but this only furthermore proves the imperfection of humans and gives the justification needed in order to punish the human race. So you don't deny that the Bible is a flawed book? The fact alone that it's flawed significantly weakens the arguments of many of the people here- If the Bible is flawed, it therefore cannot be seen as the definitive word of God. So if we can't look at the bible as definitive, then what do we have to guide is to this god? I don't know how many times I must repeat this statement in order for it to be correctly understood. I shall try again. Humans sinned. The first sin is what started it all. From that moment on, everyone has and will be punished. Yes it seems cruel and unjust, but it is what needs to be done in order to fix humanity as a whole. This thread furthermore proves this method is the only way to solve the problems humans have brought upon themselves. How does this thread prove that the method of suffering is the only way to solve the problems that humans brought on themselves? If God is all-powerful, why not just fix his creation without all this needless beating around the bush? Though you'll probably just respond with 'you wouldn't understand'. That's alright. This thread is debating the existence of god, not the motives behind his actions in the event that he does exist. People become pedophiles, racists, and murderers on their own will. This is the only slight control human's have over anything and they abuse it. Constantly on a daily basis. This proves to the maximum extent the human race must be punished in order to learn. The punishment will only go for so long and then The End of Days will occur. He is perfect. That does not mean what he made was perfect. He made it imperfect for His own reasons. Reasons you would not understand. In other words, my argument still stands: If God wouldn't stop the pedophile priests from abusing their position of authority, if he won't stop the rapist from killing the high school sophomore, it would also stand to reason that he wouldn't stop someone from inserting verses into his book that would serve their own ends rather than the good of mankind. You choose your words carefully. I have said nothing about Christianity. Christians, Catholics, Muslims, Jews and all others have battered down the very truth they attempt to worship. They are no more perfect than the rest of humans. This is why many people are confused at His teachings. Have you ever played or heard of the game telephone? How many times have you played it where the original statement or even word stays the same throughout the entire circle? You're once again touching on the reason I dislike organized religion- it's too convoluted and confused for my tastes. Perhaps I jumped the gun slightly-though your religious perspective is still quite Western in nature. And you still haven't responded to my question- are all the people who don't believe in a God or are unaware of the existence of this God in Africa going to hell because of that? After all, unless we worship him, we'll burn in eternal torment, right? The only practice that is unacceptable is Fetishism. This is people who praise an object in which they believe contains the spirit of a higher being who knows all and is all powerful. This is a sin and will not be tolerated. Everybody knows about some version of God's teachings and if he/she chooses not to listen or learn, then they are bringing punishment upon themselves. If they choose to produce a child and does not tell him/her the teachings of God and their own religion so that he/she can have the choice later to listen or not, they are bringing upon their children and their children's children any misfortune that proceeds. So the followers tribal religions that engage in this practise because they have not heard of this God of yours are to be damned, then? As for your statement about everyone knowing about God's teachings, I'm going to say this once- you are wrong. If everybody knew about God's teachings, there wouldn't be a need to send missionaries around the world to 'spread the word of God' would there? No. Everyone would already be aware of God. And saying that we have a 'choice' in worshipping God..it's a smokescreen. A complete and utter fallacy. That's not a choice at all. Saying "You can either worship this being and believe in it or burn forever in a lake of fire" is essentially giving you the choice between eating a burrito or getting a bullet through the skull. No one is going to choose the bullet. If we are to assume Heaven and Hell are both real, we have about as much choice between worshipping god or not worshipping him as a gopher has between staying in his hole or purchasing a condominium. An absurd example, perhaps, but this seems to me a rather absurd situation. Something important to be discussed is that God has many names. He is The Creator. As he passed his stories to the people meant to distribute it to others, that story was spread differently to different individuals starting religion. Many religions all point to the same God although some may think they are different. Choose your words carefully. This is something which I myself have considered, though it was somewhat different from the interpretation you present here. It may well be that this "God" is just another name for some divinity, some creative force. The concept that Christians have of God, or that Hindus have of Brahma, or the Greeks of Zeus, could all simply be encounters with the same energy-I'm hesitant to call it any sort of being. Its motives, unknowable, its desires, unfathomable. Regardless, that's a discussion for another time. I also never said you hate God. You made a mistake in assuming my assumptions. I said if you decide to hate God and/or not listen to His teachings or attempt to believe, your chances of going to Hell will increase. When I say "you" I mean every one. Since it was a response to my argument, I assumed it was a statement targeted at me. My mistake. As I've said before, don't base your judgment of God on religion. Christian and Catholic priests are just as imperfect as you and I. They were not chosen by God and they do not speak personally to God. They are simply people who decide to preach what they believe is implemented in The Bible. If you choose to go to Church, it is of course not a sin, but go there to pray. Not to listen to interpretations of The Bible. Take what you want from The Bible and do with it as you wish. Just remember there are consequences for your actions. Good or bad. Since it was a response to my argument, I assumed it was a statement targeted at me. My mistake. The Bible came from God's believers and no one else. Bad analogy. 50$ = The Bible. Not life or anything else you assumed it to be. I said above God has many names. I never mentioned that any religion is correct. All are wrong in certain ways and all are right as well. The main thing you need to do is believe in God and take from the Bible what you wish. Use that knowledge to make your future decision whether they be good or bad. Religion is generally irrelevant except for the religions in which people believe in several gods, fetishism, and atheism. You're perpetuatiing something of a paradox here. Religion is irrelevant. But listen to God's word in The Bible. Except only take select things out of it, since the bible ws manmade and therefore corrupt. Also, many ancient religions were polytheist- faiths that existed long before Christianity did. What happened to adherents of these? If the only evidence we have of God is a flawed, corrupt book composed by man, what reason do we have to believe? What proof do we have that he is there besides the word of another human being who's just as confused about all of this as we are? Deny it as long as you want. When the time comes, there will be no turning back on your decision. Keep that in mind. Duly noted. No good will come of me continuously answering your questions. Only more questions will follow. Those who ask aren't really looking for answers. The minute I give you one you're automatically looking at something inside it to prove false or try and make me look like a fool with. Well I am no fool and you shall be if you choose to not listen. I hope you choose the path I have shown you, but if you do not, you only have yourself to blame. No, we are not attempting to make you look like a fool. We are deconstructing your arguments and trying to find the weak points in it. It is called a debate for a reason. If you don't like that, you didn't have to come here in the first place. Anyone who assumes that someone in a debate is trying to make them look like a fool simply has a childish concept of debating. Good Bye everybody here. For those of you who are already believers, congratulations. You've made the right choice. May your life prosper and death be nothing to fear. For those who wish to continue this argument and will use every bit of their mind capacity to deny the truth, this will not be our last encounter. Enjoy life if and while you can. This is the problem with this debate- this isn't about preaching the "word of god" to one another. If you really want to 'help' us as you say, find a way to logically prove to us that God exists. As it is, you're just acting like you're in some way superior to us by speaking as some wise old sage. Star of Knights Listen, my granny past away yester day, and today at the funeral, the preacher was very good. He said a lot of stuff that was just so inspiring. This is not what he said but what i believe. He sent his son down to earth to die for us, the ultimate sacrifice, he loves us but we have to believe, we have to have faith, it is never to late to start believing. Just to be reborn would be the best feeling in the world, to know you are cleaned of your sins, there is no sin in heaven, there is no bad in heaven. I would really rather go to heaven and have eternal happiness then get throw in a lake of fire. But if we all have faith, we will all see each other again This contributes absolutely nothing to the debate. You should not argue on religion, it isn't right. And also, Just letting you guys know right here and right now. It is never to late to be reborn and to choose the path of God but after your eyes close and you die, there is no changing your mind Remember that If you don't like the fact that we're arguing on God an religion, get out. No one asked you to come into the debates forum and start preaching to us. You seem to be responding with a degree of hostility to the fact that we're challenging your beliefs. I just have one thing to say: Too ****ing bad. I wouldn't be here if I didn't expect my own beliefs and ideas to be challenged, deconstructed, and, in some cases, completely obliterated. Intelligent discussion requires intelligence. Start showing more of it, and stop preaching to deaf ears. Follow Newbamoeba's example: He's actually TRYING to debate this, rather than just babbling on and on about how God is great and heaven is nifty. Dude, to all the people that do not believe in god, why is it that every time somebody posts something talking about God, you just come in and say no its wrong, and dont even listen to the posts. It is the god debate thread not the Atheists thread "Dude, to all the people that believe in God, why is it that every time somebody posts something about God not existing, you just come in and say no its wrong, and don't even listen to the posts. This is the God debate thread not the Christian's thread." i need no evidence I have FAITH Who cares about evidence Faith is NOT ENOUGH. Did you hear me? Do I have to say it again? YOU NEED MORE THAN FAITH TO WIN A DEBATE. Can you imagine what would happen if, in, say, a presidential debate, one of the presidents said "Your tax dollars are safe because I have faith". They would be laughed off the stage. Since it is a debate, simply saying over and over "It's true because I say it is" is not acceptable in the least. ======================= This wall of text has gotten large enough. I'll post another response at a later date. For the time being, things to do, places to go, people to see.
Don't try to condone murder, it doesn't work well with an argument. If they are so concerned about the amount of people within a tribe would murdering members of the tribe not reduce the population? Isn't that exactly what they were trying to avoid? It still doesn't explain why this would be in a holy book. If it was part of the culture, sure, I can look past that but the fact that this is supposed to be divinely inspired is troubling. This isn't a survival problem, it's a moral problem and you can see that reflected in modern day society. The elders didn't care about the amount of people they just thought it was ****ing gross.
I don't believe in the God thats in the bible, but I do think there's something out there besides this life. I also don't think that anyone will ever discover what it is thats out there until after they die. I've actually been thinking about this a lot lately and that's just what I came up with. There are some events that I believe can't be explained because they weren't meant to be explained. Science is something that we've invented to help us rationalize things. Science can't explain everything, and neither can religion. I guess I'm not a religious person because I believe that whatever's out there isn't a ruling god or whatever. I believe that we can't even comprehend what it is. That's just how I feel about it. In a way I guess I'm a nihilist (I learned what that meant like two months ago haha) because I believe that what we do here doesn't really matter. I'm not saying its ok to go around killing people because that seems fundamentally wrong. I'm just saying that I don't believe if we use bad words or drink or do drugs or whatever that its going to have an effect on what happens after we die. And I haven't read most of the other posts because there are 83 pages of them but I've skimmed over some of them. Everyone here knows about the origins of the Bible right? Well if you don't I'll fill you in. I'm not saying this is 100% true but factual evidence does back this up. The Bible was created by a king in order to unify the heathen religions and christianity. Jesus Christ was actually a real person, and I'm not saying that he didn't do great things. But the stories that were written about him were changed by the king in order to give him godlike attributes, and to make christianity seem like a more powerful religion. So basically people that live by what the Bible says are living by a book that was created 2000 years ago, when everything was different. It was created for one reason, and that was power. That's mainly the reason that I don't follow the Bible. Religion has done many good things, but it has also caused many terrible things. I personally think that either religion should be adapted to fit the time period we are in, or it should be taken down, allowing people to believe what they want. I was brought up to believe that if I ever did anything bad God would hate me and I would burn in Hell. I didn't come up with that belief, it was taught to me and I believed it. If people were allowed to form their own beliefs then I think the world would be a better place. But thats just me.
The existence of God is undeniable. I don't even need to say the reason why. Just think about it. Existence... what is it? You think the universe just formed by CHANCE!? Every person out there knows that deep down inside of them, they know there is a greater being. Life isn't just random coincidence. Something started it all of. No matter what your religion or philosophies, denying god is ridiculous. Personally, I think God created the universe through some sort of "evolution." I don't really think that we could have come from monkeys, but I think the creation story is a metaphor. It's the only way things could make sense. Science and God should co-exist with each other, not oppose each other. So for those of you who still refuse to believe in a god, how did the universe come into existence? Even if the evolution theory is 100% true, existence had to come from somewhere. It came from God.
K, fine, I can't argue with the first cause argument. Now I need you to do something in order to make that argument useful: Demonstrate with evidence that the creator has interfered with the universe at any point after the beginning. Coincidences and events that are simply improbable don't count, they must be impossible within the laws of physics. You can't do it.
Another example of "I do not understand evolution, therefore it is wrong." Nothing evolved by chance. I would take the time to explain it but, but that has been done many times before in this thread. Just because we don't know the universe began doesn't mean we never will. The difference between you and me is that I'm O.K. not knowing. I rest assured that eventually we will discover how the universe began (although I doubt it had a 'beginning'). Just because we don't have ALL the answers right now doesn't mean we never will. I also want to know: how do you think god began? If you say god has no beginning or end, as many people would, then tell me why you would rather assume that god has existed forever than matter? Just looking at the odds, it is far more likely (although still impossible) for all matter to appear out of nowhere than for an all-powerful omnipotent being appearing out of nowhere.
I'll let the people you quoted deal with the other parts of your answer, but this one I have to rebut. 1: I was pointing out that the first cause argument does not imply a god in any way that matters. The only thing the first cause argument supports is that there was some force that sparked the big bang, and that force didn't need to be created by another force. It in no way whatsoever implies that that force was sentient, or that it was done with any purpose or goal. Nothing about it other than "it created all the matter and energy in the big bang" is supported by that particular line of reasoning. Now, if you wish to take that argument, and supplement it with other evidence to support your position that that force is what you call God, then the first cause argument has merit in the God debate. But with no other evidence than the unsupported assumptions that a) the big bang had to be caused by something and that b) the something that caused it needed no cause itself, all you've got is an eternal force, not anything resembling a god. 2: Ok, find me evidence that Jesus performed any of the miracles that a 2000 year old storybook says he performed. I'm really not sure why anyone bothers to defend God in debate, all it would take is evidence of one undeniable miracle and scientists would all instantly agree that there's a supernatural being out there that performs miracles in our world. If this God person really wants us to know he exists, he doesn't have to rely on his earthly debaters and an old book to defend him, he can prove himself if it matters to him.
Ok Ladnil, this is a debate and it is for debating, so you can not say that we shouldnt debat what we believe in. To believe in god is to have faith. We Christians do not need evidence,yea I want to be an Astronomer, but i still believe in God. Just read the bible and try to have a little bit of faith and you will start to realize that the path of jesus is the right path
I'll hop in here. 2. Find US evidence of a single cell organism evolving randomly into what we are now. A few pages back, a member here had stated he had witnessed a miracle. Whether this is true or not, it was stated as true, and you still take it as chance. God doesn't have to prove him to ourselves. WE have to prove ourselves to him. Why would such a divine entity need to bow down to us to show us he's real? Don't take His offer, and you go to hell. Simple as that. The Bible also states that arguing with ignorant people about Christianity goes nowhere. The thing about God is that He's going to let you decide how to run your life - he's not going to stoop down and make you obey Him. Its YOUR ultimate decision whether you want to follow Him or not. Say you were walking in the park, and you found a toy, sitting in the grass, as if someone lost it. Now, you pick up this toy, and you could either determine that it has a creator, or that it just came randomly.
Why would you want to believe in a god that sends people to hell to suffer for the rest of time? and why would you want to worship him? the only reason people pray to god is so they wont go to hell when they die. If anybody can give me another reason thats actually true then ill delete this. We're never going to know whats out there. We're definitely never going to be able to describe it. I do believe in some higher power but nothing like whats in the bible. Develop your own beliefs instead of listening to what other people tell you and just copying their beliefs.
So el diablo do you believe in god or not? I cant figure that out. But I'll try to find some sources for the making of the Bible. All of the letters and stuff like that were actually written. They were just changed to give jesus godlike attributes. And no, im saying that people know whats right and whats wrong. I personally dont want to kill anyone, and im sure that the majority of people out there dont want to either, so why would we do it? I just want you to think about this for a second. The muslim extremists that are performing terrorist attacks believe that we are all godless infidels. Thats the reason they do what they do. Without religion, maybe things would be more peaceful. Maybe. Something else might come up but we'll never know. What I mean by whatever is out there being incomprehensible is that we'll never be able to describe or even imagine what it is. And i have a question for you. Have you ever had an event where you feel like you've actually interacted with god? I would really like to hear about it if you feel like you have.
Um, the embryological development of every species with a placental birth on the planet? Single cell egg -> multi-cellular human. We know its possible for a human to come from a single cell because we all did in the womb. We know single celled organisms can evolve into multicellular organisms (its been observed). We know multicelluar organisms evolve into multicellular organisms (monkeys to man is a good example). So when we say unicellular to human evolution, why do you object?
Just another case of "Because I never have studied the Bible, God is false." God doesn't send people to hell. He tries to save you, He tries to save you from hell. If you don't listen, if you turn down His call, how can you be saved? We don't pray to God not to go to hell when we die, you obviously know nothing. Praying is talking to God. Next time, please know what you're talking about. @Nitrous: But growing in the womb wasn't random, or chance, such as evolution states it is. The sperm and egg had to connect, it wasn't by chance.
My grandparents are devout christians. I probably know more about the Bible then you do. Don't assume that you know more than anyone else. The bible says that god is selfish and jealous. And why should we need to be saved? why would he create a place for suffering?
My god, could you put your posts together? Anyway.. @Lefty 1. Exactly. Lots of people, atheists in particular, refuse to listen to anything we believe in. We respect your opinion, but we don't want everyone to go to hell. 2. Wow, you just contradicted yourself. " I probably know more " "Dont assume that you know more". And where in the Bible does it say God is selfish and jealous? Why would God be jealous? Because he has everything better? He's selfish because he wants us to go to heaven? @Nitrous: Its our job as Christians to get people to heaven. Sure he makes the whole process happen, but we are His chosen disciples.
1: If God wants us to know he exists, and he is omnipotent, it is by definition infinitely easy for him to show us he exists. Since he wants us to know he exists, and has failed to show us this, then he is unable to satisfy his own desires and is not omnipotent. Or he's just made up and can't do anything. As for the toy sitting on the ground, how about this one. You see a rock just sitting around outside. Do you think somebody specifically designed this rock? It has such intricate molecular structure, in many cases several different molecules together in one rock! Maybe it is the perfect skipping rock. Must have been designed! Nope, its just a rock, probably spit out of a volcano at some point, or compressed in sediment. We know how rocks form, and they are not designed by anything, despite what any geologist could tell you about various stones and their classification, and all their significant features. They were formed by natural processes. Why would you accept the natural process that formed a simple stone, but not accept the observed, documented natural process that forms a new species? Even though we don't yet know how life got started, we know that it did start, and from that point we know how evolution has worked to shape the species we see today. Species, I might add, that all have flaws and inefficiencies and vestigial organs, so they clearly were not designed by an engineer with omniscient knowledge. Look, you can make threats all you want, but you still haven't backed up those threats with anything. Nor have any of the other religions, from the Catholics that don't know what they believe about Hell, to the Fred Phelps style extreme Christians who think pretty much everyone is going to Hell, to the Muslims who think that all of the above are going to Hell for ignoring Mohammad's words. If you've picked your religion and your specific version of God at random to hopefully play the odds and not go to hell, then I wish you luck, but don't run around threatening everyone else without backing it up. Bank robbers don't threaten tellers with guns nobody can see and expect to get any cash, no they actually show the backup to their threat, so if you want to make a threat you better back it up with something.
It says that at least three times in the Bible, the exact quote is like "for ours is a selfish God," and then there's all this talk about false idols, and during that it says he's very jealous. and yea i was being sarcastic lol. And i understand how you feel about not wanting people to go to hell, and i used to be scared to think that god wasnt the way he was in the bible because i thought i would go to hell. Im not trying to convince you to drop your religious beliefs, im just presenting mine.