I never said that's why I worship Him (though if it was, I believe it comes down to a matter of personal choice). The truth is that God has done too much for me to not worship Him. I don't understand how, but I believe God is incompatible with wrong--which goes against what I said earlier, I realize. But, perhaps God's definition of wrong is far and above our definition? The Bible does make clear that God's ways are higher than ours and that his thoughts are higher than ours; what else would you expect from a God whose capacities are infinite? But no matter: I worship God for what He's done for me and for His goodness and mercy that are available to any who would seek Him. I could go on, but I'd rather not write a book when it's this late and I've got a 7:30 class in the morning...
Nitrous, if there is no god then how could the universe itself have been created. You have probably been asked this question more then enough, no doubt. But I just don't see how there could be us without their being something or someone else before us. Also while there is no solid proof that god exists, there is just about as equal proof that god does not exist. Also don't forget that in the bible God created Earth so that we may have our trials between hell and heaven. Which is why we have war, disease, natural disasters...
God is incompatible with good because of a technicality. Not because we're judging on an objective standard of good. God cannot sin. A sin is defined as a disobedience to god. It can further be defined as something not within god's nature to commit. Therefore, lying is only a sin unless god lies. In which case god is still "perfect" because a sin is described as a disobedience to god and god can't disobey himself. It's like me saying, "Nitrous can do no evil*. Therefore, Nitrous is perfectly good! *by his standard" I call bullshit. Don't know, don't care. But if I were to genuinely try to talk to you about the origins of the universe I would not have the upperhand because you would not be genuine with me. I don't say this because I think you are a bad person or a cheat but because the definition of "god" is the first cause. What created god? Nothing god has always been by definition. So, my answer is the little bang, which has always been by definition. It created the big bang and so on. The little bang transcends time and space but I will give no evidence of this, because I don't have too. It is just throwing darts at a board full of ideas and superpowers for god. I have no problem calling the first cause god (whether one is needed is another discussion). I have a problem calling god, Yahweh or Jesus or Holy of Holys. You must understand just because you call something god, doesn't mean it is. Exactly. You've got it. There is no proof he exists, so why believe it? There is no proof he doesn't exist, so why believe that? There's no reason to take a stance on either. Most claims to god are just appeals to emotion and "oh he makes me feel happy and strong" while us atheists just wallow in a muck of our own logic, as if the human psyche were that black and white. I damn near find it offensive when someone says god makes them happy. He may very well but to the go on and say he is the only source just pisses me off. Humans cope with their conditions, people stranded on a desert island can feel happy when it rains or just by watching a sunset. In my opinion, it is demeaning to humanity to say that god makes me happy and nothing else could. That's all. But of course that was all a tangent created by me. My only response to the quote was really the first few sentences. If its a trial why are there miscarriages? Why do babies die of disease before their trial? Why would they go to heaven if they didn't complete the trial, just because they're small and cute doesn't mean they accepted Jesus as their personal savior. This trial thing is bullshit. There's no reason for it. If you're god use your omniscience to figure out what these people would have done and sort them accordingly or better yet if you are perfect don't create anything because you have no reason for it and an augmentation to perfection can only detract from perfection. Why go to the trouble of giving us freewill if he's only going to take it away in the afterlife? You can't sin in heaven, even if you wanted to. He's forcing love in heaven so isn't he raping you? It's not worth it. If I had to kill one baby to gain friends and worshippers I wouldn't do it. I certainly wouldn't kill over 1,000,000 babies a year due to miscarriages. I wouldn't give birth defects. I wouldn't make disease. There's no reason for unnecessary suffering if they'll be getting an eternity later. And while I'm on the subject, there wouldn't be a hell had I been given the choice. Hitler, Stalin, and Mao could reconcile themselves to their victims, redeem themselves, apologize, rid themselves of their primitive hates and racial discretion. There's no reason for vindictive eternal punishement when a corrective temporary punishment can create greater happiness.
I admit that I can't think of a viable response that would satisfy you. You've given me something new to think about and to ask my teachers, Nitrous, and for that I thank you. But I still believe. BTW, I will say that you are one of the most brilliant people I've ever had the privilege of debating with.
But Hitler and these men had a trial in which to prove if they were good or evil. They failed the trial and must now suffer for the suffering they caused to thousands. Also miscarriages are human qualities, God does no simply intervene. E.G: If some man is about to shoot another man point blank face does anyone expect for the man with the gun to just be struck by lightning, of course not. Nothing unnatural happens, because then people will know god exists and there will no longer be faith in him. And perhaps one of the best reasons to have a religion is to have faith that when a loved one dies they have a joyous after life. If you had a child and he is brutally slain by a mad-man would you want him to simply float around, or try to think of a small possibility that there is indeed a heaven in which he is enjoying?
In my opinion, God created it. Fact Wise: I don't believe it has been discovered yet.. But to answer Chucks questions about where God came from... I believe beyond the universe and life, time doesn't exist. There is no start or end to God's reign. I do not believe he was created and I believe he will never die. Just thinking what would death be like? Its nothing, I mean what would the feeling be? There is no feeling.
Oh come on, Eagle, everybody knows that: And Radiant, there are supernatural miracles. A woman in my church had her car totaled and she was flung from the dislodged driver's side door into a field fifty feet away. Blood was everywhere, she broke most of the bones in her body, and was legally dead for seven minutes at the scene. A man performed CPR and resuscitated her and they rushed her to the hospital. The doctors predicted that she would never be able to move again or feel anything below the neck, and that healing her body would take years of reconstructive surgery and treatment. She walked out of the hospital a month later, in better physical condition than she'd ever been in during her entire life, without a single scar on her. Now tell me that was luck and not an intervention by God. Or how about the pastor's secretary who went down to Georgia to visit her dying grandmother? She'd been entirely senile for years, couldn't even remember her own name, could barely speak, and for the past two weeks had been barely holding onto life at all. The woman gets down there and is with her grandmother and her whole family to say goodbye, and when they're all gathered, the grandmother sits up in her hospital bed, completely lucid, acknowledging everyone's names and clearly recognizing them. She asks for someone to fetch her a cup of coffee, and once she has her coffee, she says, "I've just been with Jesus, and I've come back to tell you which of you will be with us in heaven. He's allowed me to do just this." And the old woman turned to each of the members of the family and said whether they'd be there or not, and paused over her son, who was a prominent deacon in a church, and said, "you won't be there, and you know why." And once she'd done this and finished her coffee, she lay back down and died. Tell me that isn't supernatural. Or how about the countless people who go in to surgery to have tumors removed only to have the doctors find that the tumors are completely gone? The ones who go in to get organs transplanted or removed, only to have the doctors discover perfectly healthy, new organs resting where the decrepit ones should be? The dead who are raised? The blind who see? The deaf who hear? The lame walking and dancing, and the diseased who are made whole? And all at the name of Jesus. Sure, God doesn't heal everyone, and we can't know why, but to deny that he's moving and active in our world is to be entirely blind.
Already been addressed in my previous response. The short and simple: don't know, don't care. What makes genocide evil? Is it the idea of robbing the lives of thousands that makes it evil? No, couldn't be that we slaughter millions of cows per year. Is it the idea of killing a person that irks us? Wouldn't that just be special pleading for the human race's superiority? What about serial killers? Why do they not feel this special pleading for our race like others do? It seems to me the concept of evil is entirely arbitrary. Someone is bound to disagree and even if no one does it doesn't mean something is objectively evil. If indeed when you die you go to a better place would Hitler not be doing these people a favor? You decide, 1940's Germany or heaven? Don't think I'm heartless I agree that Hitler is evil, I'm arguing from an objective standpoint outside my own experience. From my standpoint at least if everyone went to heaven and were able to overcome their own prejudices and intolerances and right the wrongs of their past we'd be better off than sitting up there saying, "they're getting what they deserve." It only serves to strengthen our own prejudices, not resolve them. You will have no peace by excluding yourself from the people who wronged you. As for miscarriages, most are entirely natural and not delegated by the person carrying the child :\ Well let's look at the film Valkyrie. Hitler survives all these assassination attempts. If god were so inclined to kill the mad-man everyone would have placed the blame on the saboteurs and not god thereby proving nothing about god. It would just show that people will associate events with what they are inclined to associate it with. The plane landing in the Hudson is a good example; god? or a skilled glider pilot with 20+ years of experience? Seems like a no-brainer but considering the media's response it is troubling to see the lack of critical thinking. No because it does not entail that the afterlife is my ideal form of it or that god chooses people the way I would. I understand the stripping of free will and the removal of responsibility, urgency, and indeed the will to do anything. It's a fate worse than death. Yes I would miss my child and I want the best for him but the best for him isn't something after death, it's nothing. For the dead to truly rest in peace they mustn't know it. Oh, no doubt. There's no reason not to believe so long as you acknowledge some basic concepts of belief. The entire human experience is based upon making beliefs and assumptions. I'd never want to rob you of them but I don't want you to be ignorant of your own beliefs and I don't want you to be ignorant of mine. Humans are social by nature, it is our communion that strengthens us.
Big Bang is a singularity for the expanding universe, not an engine that created everything from nothing. Besides, if God were created then he wouldn't be God. Just for kicks, let's say that a god created the universe and it's laws to be carried out by itself and evolution was the means by which it created and then divorced himself from the world?
technically if god wasn't created and something could have been there all along, doesn't that also completely disprove the origin of the big bang and everything else argument? If it's possible that god came from nothing, then it's entirely possible that anything could come from nothing.
Now that's a rather foolish stance. It's like saying, "my father is not my biological father so I really don't love him the same way I would..." If my biological father left me and my step dad raised me as his own I would love him more than my real dad and, indeed, my real dad would not be my conceptual dad. Though my DNA came from him I'd love my step dad as if he were the only dad and this stranger claiming to be the sperm donor would not be anything to me but a man-***** and jackass. Equate it to god. If god loved us so much that he sent his only son to save us, I would still call him god even if he were created. Of course the exception being that god wouldn't be your "biological dad" he'd only be a spiritual god and not an unmoved mover. Semi-insulting. Considering the complete lack of knowledge this animation portrays..."Look some dynamite went off in space and made a few billion galaxies!" It is very crude. Such a vast amount childishness can only be created by ignorance. And as we know, ignorance begets ignorance. There is no use for this but to harden the minds of others, on both sides. I still say all the people who were paralyzed by fender-benders should be atheists. The human body is amazing, this is true but to say this is a showing of god is foolish. Why put her through it if only to flaunt ones own power and show once and for all that he can getcha any time, any where, no matter your religion. I don't believe it, personally. My best explanation is that processes in her mind caused her to do this. Like in Signs where the lady says swing away, its just her brain going berserk. If this lady is near death, more times than not, humans hallucinate as a coping mechanism. Still I don't believe it. They're are certain problems with it too. Why doesn't god tell everyone where they are going? Why does this family reap the benefits of god and not me? Who is she to claim to be a messenger of god? Was she a highly religious woman? Was she a sinner? Are the wages of sin death or conversations with Jesus? I'm sorry but this just all sounds ridiculous. Who said Jesus did it? I mean sure this could have happened to Christians but why does it have to be Jesus? Maybe some unknown god just likes toying with us and making up religions and reinforcing it with miracles. I mean you can't prove I'm wrong so that makes me right, right? I never, ever take these stories seriously. They all sound like bad email forwards except you cut off the end where it asks you to send it to 20 people or you'll have something bad happen to you. Chain letters are a ***** aren't they?
If there's some kind of sentient god out there that created the universe and set up its laws and then proceeded to do nothing, then why does he matter? If something is completely undetectable and has no effect on anything else, then it for all intents and purposes does not exist. If you wish to hold onto a belief in a god and a belief in evidence and rational thinking at the same time by claiming that the god doesn't do anything, that is fine, but it is the very definition of pointless to debate it.
Then what would be the point of believing? If he only created and then walked off then there is no punishment or reward for believing. It would only serve as a security blanket for those desperately seeking a god. I can't disprove that premise but, at the same time, who cares? What's he going to do void his nature and intervene with reality all for the sake of one mortal man? And what would be the point of planting a seed if you didn't intend to reap the benefits of it. If god does intend to reap the benefits of us then he would be active in the growing process ensuring we "bear good fruit"
In all of those cases is there not even a small chance that can happen? It may seem impossible but is it possible and simply non-probable
Space, time, and matter aren't eternal. They all came from something, something which didn't come at all, it was always there, is there, and forever will be there. Also, there is the trusty 1st law of Thermodynamics. So, nothing can only come from nothing. This analogy doesn't really work at all really. Seeing as you're going to use the Judeo-Christian God as the pretext of your argument then let's break that down. Your main point is that if God were created but still sent his son then you would praise him as such. Fair enough, but if your going to accept the attonement of Christ from the Bible then you should accept that God is eternal. We don't pick and choose what we want. Also, if God is created then he would be a finite being. That would mean he is confined to space, time, and matter. That's leads us back to the first question, what started it all? Something that is eternal, hence an eternal God. Well if you don't care about the beginning of the universe then what's the point in debating with you. If you lack the capacity to care then you're lacking the capacity to open your mind. So, you've basically come into this debate close minded and forever will be close minded. Finitely of course...
I warned you this would happen. We would get into this bogus causality arguement which would lead us to the unmoved mover which we can call god. I accept that. That's just a term and just a definition. What I don't accept is calling that "god" emotionally intricate and active in our world. Call the unmoved mover what you want, it says nothing about the truth claims of theology, nor does it say anything about the god of the agnostics. It just means something was the unmoved mover. Let's assume the singularity was the unmoved mover. You can call that god, I have no problems with it but don't claim it to be divine (unless you can back it up) and don't say, "hah, I gotcha, the agnostics werer right! Foolish atheist." No... It's just a term. Sure you do. Look at the old testament. It is a testament (pun) to your hypocrisy. Stone me some homosexuals and I'll take you seriously. Surely, you don't believe in the flood or the tower of babel. Surely, you don't believe Jesus PHYSICALLY ascended to heaven (even though he would be headed for space not a magical fairly land which means he must have ascended spiritually). Surely, you don't believe god commanded infanticide and genocide during the military campaign of Canan. The fact is you pick and choose all the time. If you aren't on your knees praising god you are in the wrong. Remember when you wanted the new maps really bad? Some people would call that a false idol because it detracted from your worship to the lord; I know my pastors called video games false idols. So please don't give me this bullshit on cherry-picking. How so? We're only confined to spacetime and matter because we live within the universe. Spacetime and matter only exist within our universe (possibly others, if you believe that sort of thing), so anything outside the universe is not bound by matter and spacetime. Even if god isn't infinite, it doesn't mean he is confined. Why should the beginning of the universe interest me (for the record, it does)? It obviously doesn't interest you. I find it astounding that you managed to quote me and then respond to something totally irrelevant to the quote. Try one more time.
So you accept the definition. You refuse to accept the definition as it has been portrayed by the Bible. Actually, I'm selling my xbox and the videogames too. No more hypocrisy here, for that very reason. I do accept and believe the account of Canan. Yes, it's hard to swallow at times. Also, why would I throw a stone at homosexual? Shouldn't I stone fornicators too? Sexual promiscuity if just as sinful as homosexuality. In fact shouldn't I stone myself for the lustful desires I've had? No, because the new testament supercedes the old testament. 'Let he who is blameless cast the first stone.' If God exists outside of spacetime and matter, then he would be infinite. Infinity is impossible inside the realms of spacetime and matter.
This may seem a little off topic, but I believe that there is probably more than one universe in the relm of reality. I don't have any proof that there is more than one universe, so don't ask me to supply any. I feel that if two adjacent universes get too close and touch for a split second, then that could be the origin for a Big Bang. In other words the extreme energy that the spilt second touch creates, would be enough to start a new universe. That universe would grow and evolve just as we have grown and evolved. I often wonder if like two or three hundred years from now if poeple are going to look back at us and laugh. I mean we look back at the people who thought the world was flat and laugh at them. I have stated this before, I feel that the concept of god was made up by early humans to explain things, that at that time were completely unexplanable. I feel that the world should get over the whole god thing and start to concentrate on how to improve our lives and OUR planet. We should be focusing on health care, the economy, the planets resources, etc.. The reason our planet and humanity in general has gone to **** is beacuse of religion and greed.
I accept the premise I just want you to prove your premise. That's all. How can perfection supersede perfection? Yeah, I see that. I was trying to build you a safety net but whatev's, we can move on.