This is getting somewhat convoluted. If god did exist would`nt he give us good stuff like unicorns and marsh-mellows? See!? That is proof to why god has drawn up a lot of debate on whether he is real or not.
Well said. That's one of the greatest problems I have for religions, is that they condemn any 'nonbelievers' to hell. If God was really so amazing and all-knowing, he'd give his followers some concrete, reasonable fashion in which to convert people over to his side, rather than just having them childishly threaten others with the "you're going to hell" argument. I figure there are so many faiths that threaten hell for nonbelievers that I'll be going there no matter what I do- so why bother wasting my time in practise of a faith I don't believe in just out of fear? I'm doing just fine as an agnostic, thanks. I've already given my arguments, they can be found here (I'll save you all the effort of probing thruogh several hundred walls of text). Still waiting on someone to refute them, by the way.
Ok here it is. To believe in God is to have FAITH, if you don't have that then you do not believe in God, so that is a long story short
Again, you're just re-stating a tired old view that's been repeated over and over in this debate-you're also making an arbitrary, and entirely obvious statement. You saying that if one doesn't believe in God one doesn't have FAITH (which is defined as belief in a God or gods) is the same as me saying if you don't like peanut butter, you won't like a peanut butter sandwich.
Faith: n. Mental acceptance of and confidence in a claim as truth without proof supporting the claim.
Same difference- the important part of my response was that SOK was making an arbitrary statement which contributed nothing to the debate.
God never asked people to use that argument. We believe on faith, not by sight. And Chuck, please, what you say makes my ears cringe. You need to read the Bible before you can say things like that. To your points, Azrius: 1. God cannot defy his own strength, meaning he isn't all powerful. There is a limit to His strength, and that is itself. He is limited to his own power. 2. God was disappointed, not shocked and angered. Sin did not come from the tree, which is why this argument doesn't work. 2 Thessalonians 2:7 states that the source of sin is a MYSTERY.. 3. God does not condemn people to hell. He tries to save them, but if they refuse, they will go to hell. Pretty simple, really. 4. A rewording would be nice, don't exactly understand this one. What makes the concept of sin arbitrary? Because God can't disobey himself? No. Even though God is the creator of all, it is stated (said this earlier) in 2 Thessalonians 2:7 that sin's origin is secret. 5. Please tell me where God is infinitely wrathful and vengeful.
I can not prove His existence because no matter what I give you, you will simply reply with a clever remark or some rebuttal which is unnecessary. All people have ever done is question His existence and He has given people tons of reasons to believe. I have already told you the amount of intelligence and mind capacity it would take to understand a quantity such as that of God is too much for your brain to handle. You can still imagine Him, but as you say "seeing is believing" does not apply to this circumstance. Until you either travel to different galaxies around the universe or end up in Heaven, you won't be able to handle it. I'm sure you've heard of the number "Google" yes? If not, it is a 1 with 100 zeros after it. Try to think of anything other than 0 that many number of times. A google is not even a [1 over a google] the quantity of God's being. That is how impossible it is for you to understand. As I've said, He is everywhere and you see Him every day. Since this is subconscious, obviously you would think otherwise. Which is understandable. What I am saying is true. If you choose to try as you mentioned above (Go to church, pray and try to believe even though truly inside you don't) it is not seen as a lie, but grace. It shows the perseverance that one must have to truly believe in something he can not see. Although deep down inside you might believe another story, if you repent and make an attempt to believe the words I and He speak, your chances of going to Heaven will drastically be increased. Now, if by chance you decide to actually lie and go around saying "I love God" when truly you hate even the thought of a higher being than yourself, that is a lie and will actually increase you chances of going to Hell than if you would plainly not believe. Keep in mind you are not forced to hate anything. It is completely your decision. What you just called honesty is nothing more than free will. You have been given the tools to succeed. What you do with them is up to you. To put it in a real-life scenario, your parents give you 50 dollars for groceries and send you into the store. If you bought a video game instead would they not punish you for your actions? They would. If you have lenient parents who don't care what you do, then congratulations. God is not lenient. He has given you the Bible. What you do with it is up to you. No He would not. I've mentioned this already. I will quote myself. No one other than God can tell you where your eternal destination is. The fact that you go to Hell if you do not make an attempt to believe is not a threat. It could be called a number of things such as: advice, warning, salvation, etc. but not a threat. You're going to die no matter what and no one will decide how your eternal fate will proceed except you. You decide how you act and you decide what you want to follow and believe. That's what free will is for. If you choose to make all the wrong decisions and hate God because you can not see him, you just made your chances of going to Hell much greater. God Himself knows where you are all going to go after death and could tell you but it would only put you in confusion and denial for the rest of your life. Imagine being told at 18 your life is ending with eternal Hell. As I've said before, He is not ordering you to believe by any means so if you are content with your religion and the knowledge that your death is not the last thing you should worry about, then continue as so. I will pray for you and the salvation of your soul. If you are meaning to say if you do not have faith, you don't believe in God meaning you're going to Hell, then you are incorrect. If you don't make any attempt at it and decide you will worship something else instead, then your chances are now worse than before but still undetermined to the human race including yourself. If you are simply stating a fact, then I see no point in reiterating the already said truth in this "debate thread" many many times. I believe you've ironically said in the Introductions section "Make every post count." - How did this count?
God is a construct created by the human mind to explain the unexplainable and to fill in the mysterious holes in our knowledge and make us feel not so alone in the universe. There is no proof or disproof to the existence of god, but that does not stop belief. In reality, there will never be a way to prove the existence or nonexistence of god, but i still personally believe in god due to some personal experiences i have had that have sufficed as proof enough for me.
Newbamoeba God never asked people to use that argument. We believe on faith, not by sight. And Chuck, please, what you say makes my ears cringe. You need to read the Bible before you can say things like that. To your points, Azrius: 1. God cannot defy his own strength, meaning he isn't all powerful. There is a limit to His strength, and that is itself. He is limited to his own power. Heh. Score one for you- the question of the rock is a logical loophole. You've answered it with a second logical loophole. 2. God was disappointed, not shocked and angered. Sin did not come from the tree, which is why this argument doesn't work. 2 Thessalonians 2:7 states that the source of sin is a MYSTERY. 2 Thessalonians 2:7: For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. Seems to me you're reading into this a little too much. You're going to need to explain how this states that the source of sin is a mystery. 3. God does not condemn people to hell. He tries to save them, but if they refuse, they will go to hell. Pretty simple, really. And why do they go to hell? Are you meaning to tell me that a serial killer who accepts God's love and repents will go to heaven, while an atheist who would give their shirt off their back for someone they don't even know, who is always a good person, is damned? 4. A rewording would be nice, don't exactly understand this one. What makes the concept of sin arbitrary? Because God can't disobey himself? No. Even though God is the creator of all, it is stated (said this earlier) in 2 Thessalonians 2:7 that sin's origin is secret. You've already referred to that verse once, and I'll repeat that I fail to see how that single phrase irrefutibly proves that the origin of sin is a secret. My understanding of sin is that it is an act of disobedience from God- it is what drives man further away from the lord and further away from the salvation of heaven. And even if sin's origin is a secret, the definition of sin still remains the same- it is at its core a failure to adhere to the laws of God. 5. Please tell me where God is infinitely wrathful and vengeful. I don't feel like going through a bible and listing a text wall of specific instances of God's subsequent wrath and mercy, so I'll just say this: Read the Old Testament. How often does it refer to the wrath of God? How often does it refer to god as vengeful and frightening. Now look at the New Testament.There's a marked difference between the two in his behaviour. Doog Nit First and foremost, GOD has not given us the bible- it is a man-made book. It contains inconsistencies. Mistakes. For all we know, the authors of the bible could have composed passages in it simply to further their own means. Now, I'm sure all of you will be saying "No, God wouldn't allow that"- and here's where I'll stop you. You don't know if God would allow it or not. You'd think God would prevent pedophile priests from molesting choir boys, wouldn't you? But guess what, he did not. You are also implying that everyone has access to the bible, everybody can read it, everyone can see the word of God. What about the situation in Africa? Are you meaning to tell me that all the men and women dying of AIDS are going to hell because they either haven't heard of God or prefer to believe in their own faith ABOVE Christianity? Consider your words carefully. One thing a lot of Christians don't seem to get is that, although Christianity is a massive faith, it's not the only one out there. Even if one third of the world is Christian(Note that this is simply a popular estimate-for all we know, the statistics could be incorrect), that still leaves about two thirds of the world who are not. Are you meaning to tell me that virtually everyone in India is going to hell because "God gave them the bible but they ignored it?" Their faith has been around a damn while longer than Christianity. You're also making an extreme and serious mistake in assuming that I hate god, something of a knee-jerk reaction on your part. I never said I hated god. I never even said I didn't believe in god- all of the arguments I've made against God's existence are refutable, it's just a matter of someone being intelligent enough to deconstruct them. What I hate is religion. I hate being told from all angles "join us or burn in hell". Furthermore, I don't understand the reasoning of an apparently infallible, divine being in condemning anyone who doesn't worship them to eternal torment. I openly despise many decisions of the church, and their handling of many situations (Their attitude towards homosexuality, the handling of the aforementioned pedophilia, their behaviour in the middle ages) outright disgusts me. I figure if God is so wise, he'll understand why I choose not to follow a corrupt institution that's rotting from the inside out. Regardless, this is a discussion about God- not religion itself, though I suppose it was to be expected that religion would come into play as a topic here.
1. 2 Thessalonians 2:7: For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. Seems to me you're reading into this a little too much. You're going to need to explain how this states that the source of sin is a mystery. 2. And why do they go to hell? Are you meaning to tell me that a serial killer who accepts God's love and repents will go to heaven, while an atheist who would give their shirt off their back for someone they don't even know, who is always a good person, is damned? 3. You've already referred to that verse once, and I'll repeat that I fail to see how that single phrase irrefutibly proves that the origin of sin is a secret. My understanding of sin is that it is an act of disobedience from God- it is what drives man further away from the lord and further away from the salvation of heaven. And even if sin's origin is a secret, the definition of sin still remains the same- it is at its core a failure to adhere to the laws of God. 4. I don't feel like going through a bible and listing a text wall of specific instances of God's subsequent wrath and mercy, so I'll just say this: Read the Old Testament. How often does it refer to the wrath of God? How often does it refer to god as vengeful and frightening. Now look at the New Testament.There's a marked difference between the two in his behaviour. [/QUOTE] 1. You might want to read a different translation. NIV: 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 2. That's just how it is. God can't save us if we don't ask. 3. Obviously sin fails to agree with the laws of God, God's will and laws do not promote sin. 4. What i'm trying to say is God isn't INFINITELY wrathful or vengeful, in fact he isn't vengeful at all. And frightening? The egyptians were frightened of the plague because their worst nightmare had come upon them - and their ignorance didn't help. I've stated this previously, OT should be used for nothing for than history.
I assume you meant, "OT should be used for nothing more than history". If so... Does this mean that the whole bible isn't God's divine word? That we shouldn't look for any hidden meanings or messages in the Old Testament? What separates NT from OT?
Sure it's God's divine word, and you can look at "hidden meanings" in it. The more recent parts of the OT emphasize on actual teaching, which are okay, but the first books that spark all debates, shouldn't really be used to teach things (unless you're teaching Bible history..). NT is mostly teaching, OT is mostly history. There's your difference.
Yes. The Bible is a man-made book which was written in God's words. Although not everything was written was it was meant to be, it is as close to God's teachings as possible. Yes it has inconsistencies and mistakes, but this only furthermore proves the imperfection of humans and gives the justification needed in order to punish the human race. I don't know how many times I must repeat this statement in order for it to be correctly understood. I shall try again. Humans sinned. The first sin is what started it all. From that moment on, everyone has and will be punished. Yes it seems cruel and unjust, but it is what needs to be done in order to fix humanity as a whole. This thread furthermore proves this method is the only way to solve the problems humans have brought upon themselves. People become pedophiles, racists, and murderers on their own will. This is the only slight control human's have over anything and they abuse it. Constantly on a daily basis. This proves to the maximum extent the human race must be punished in order to learn. The punishment will only go for so long and then The End of Days will occur. He is perfect. That does not mean what he made was perfect. He made it imperfect for His own reasons. Reasons you would not understand. You choose your words carefully. I have said nothing about Christianity. Christians, Catholics, Muslims, Jews and all others have battered down the very truth they attempt to worship. They are no more perfect than the rest of humans. This is why many people are confused at His teachings. Have you ever played or heard of the game telephone? How many times have you played it where the original statement or even word stays the same throughout the entire circle? Something important to be discussed is that God has many names. He is The Creator. As he passed his stories to the people meant to distribute it to others, that story was spread differently to different individuals starting religion. Many religions all point to the same God although some may think they are different. Choose your words carefully. The only practice that is unacceptable is Fetishism. This is people who praise an object in which they believe contains the spirit of a higher being who knows all and is all powerful. This is a sin and will not be tolerated. Everybody knows about some version of God's teachings and if he/she chooses not to listen or learn, then they are bringing punishment upon themselves. If they choose to produce a child and does not tell him/her the teachings of God and their own religion so that he/she can have the choice later to listen or not, they are bringing upon their children and their children's children any misfortune that proceeds. I also never said you hate God. You made a mistake in assuming my assumptions. I said if you decide to hate God and/or not listen to His teachings or attempt to believe, your chances of going to Hell will increase. When I say "you" I mean every one. As I've said before, don't base your judgment of God on religion. Christian and Catholic priests are just as imperfect as you and I. They were not chosen by God and they do not speak personally to God. They are simply people who decide to preach what they believe is implemented in The Bible. If you choose to go to Church, it is of course not a sin, but go there to pray. Not to listen to interpretations of The Bible. Take what you want from The Bible and do with it as you wish. Just remember there are consequences for your actions. Good or bad.
I can't see why God being incomprehensible has any bearing on whether or not he can be proven. We have two assumptions: 1, a god is powerful enough to perform miracles, and 2, this god wants us to know of his existence. With these two things being a part of the definition of a god, there's no excuse for failure to prove that any god exists. None. Telling me that if I saw a god I would not understand it with my limited human mind is not relevant, because I'm not asking this god to stand before me. I'm asking him to do anything at all that can't be explained by natural phenomena. As for your redefinition of the word grace, I have a question in response to that. Why your religion? Why is your religion any more probable than Islam or Mormonism? Remember, if you're wrong and they're right, you're going to the same Hell that I am. Finally, if my mother gave me $50 to buy groceries, I know that my mom was the one who gave me the $50, and that she wants me to buy groceries. I know cause she told me herself. You claim that your god has given me life, and he wants me to spend it his way. Neither of these claims has any evidence whatsoever, and further, there are contradictory claims coming from every other religion. The better analogy would be that I find $50 in my pocket and I don't know where it came from, and then 10 people each tell me something different about where it came from, and all of them say I'm supposed to spend the money their way. They all also threaten different punishments for spending the $50 incorrectly. Then there are some people off to the side who tell me that all 10 of those who are asking for my $50 just wants a piece of my $50 and doesn't actually know any better than I do where it came from. I think I'll spend that money on what I want, thanks.
God is simply the product of a person's imagination. But what's to say that believing in something does not make it true. In the infinite amount of dimensions, realities and unreality's anything is possible. Even the creation of God.
Listen, my granny past away yester day, and today at the funeral, the preacher was very good. He said a lot of stuff that was just so inspiring. This is not what he said but what i believe. He sent his son down to earth to die for us, the ultimate sacrifice, he loves us but we have to believe, we have to have faith, it is never to late to start believing. Just to be reborn would be the best feeling in the world, to know you are cleaned of your sins, there is no sin in heaven, there is no bad in heaven. I would really rather go to heaven and have eternal happiness then get throw in a lake of fire. But if we all have faith, we will all see each other again
The Bible came from God's believers and no one else. Bad analogy. 50$ = The Bible. Not life or anything else you assumed it to be. I said above God has many names. I never mentioned that any religion is correct. All are wrong in certain ways and all are right as well. The main thing you need to do is believe in God and take from the Bible what you wish. Use that knowledge to make your future decision whether they be good or bad. Religion is generally irrelevant except for the religions in which people believe in several gods, fetishism, and atheism. As I've said before, this isn't an argument for me. I am simply giving you all warning. Don't believe me if you don't wish it, but what I am saying is nothing but the truth. Deny it as long as you want. When the time comes, there will be no turning back on your decision. Keep that in mind. No good will come of me continuously answering your questions. Only more questions will follow. Those who ask aren't really looking for answers. The minute I give you one you're automatically looking at something inside it to prove false or try and make me look like a fool with. Well I am no fool and you shall be if you choose to not listen. I hope you choose the path I have shown you, but if you do not, you only have yourself to blame. Good Bye everybody here. For those of you who are already believers, congratulations. You've made the right choice. May your life prosper and death be nothing to fear. For those who wish to continue this argument and will use every bit of their mind capacity to deny the truth, this will not be our last encounter. Enjoy life if and while you can. And with that, I part.