@ the original complaint about Sandbox being open: They Crypt is the size of a Grifball court, you can still use that.
While I agree that interlocking and geomerging do not make a good map, a subject that I have argued many times, I find that the ease of placing peices of such varying shape and size takes a little bit of the skill out of forging. The fact is when you have a very small item pallet making something look unique was a challenge. And with sandbox, and its behemoth of a pallet selection, just about every shape can be made with ease. Now the defineing feature of a good map being gameplay, which can't be seen through pics, only experienced, means that it will be harder to determine what maps are of a quality that is worthy of my time. Where in the past I could tell how well a map plays because the appearance gave insight into how much time was spent on the map, and maps with more time put into them generally play better as well.
I would disagree with that - while a larger pallet range increases the ease of forging (and also perhaps lets people who give little thought to gameplay forge), it also increases the potential for unique geometry and aesthetics. I've yet to see any truly original and unique aesthetics created out of combined pieces (interlocking comes to mind) that used to hold my interest in Foundry maps, but they will come eventually.
Becuase clearly giving less "forge" skilled people the ability to make a map without having to use ridiculous amounts of what are lets face it,glitches. Is a bad thing...obviously. The silly children who make terrible maps and try to make other others play them would still make them anyway. This allows people who may have great map ideas but can't be assed spending tireless hours making one map to actually build something. And honestly your still going to find crazy designs by big forgers.We just don't have to do a crazy amount of interlcoking and floating just to make a little arch. Anyone who dislikes sandtrap becuase it lowers "skill" in forging should log off right now. Your talking about a section of gaming which shouldn't be based on "skill" to any degree.Only ingenuity
True you can't really judge spawning and gameplay etc. from pics, but I don't think a larger object variety ruins judging whether a map is worth looking at from pics. The amount of time and effort put into building an 'interesting' looking structure means squat in comparison to how that structure works in game. This is what pics are for, so that you can look at the geometry (the core essence of a map in reality) and judge whether you think it's built well for gameplay. People could have put hours into building a novel and new structure within the more constricting object options of Foundry, only for it to play really badly in game. A structure that's had a lot of time put in to it doesn't equal a well built and designed structure within the map as a whole. And Sandbox's increased options don't really influence this at all, you're still looking through the fancy 'look what I did' structural work that there was before, trying to see that which will actually play well in your mind, something that looks well designed. Having more objects doesn't hinder this, it helps those who have these design skills realise their ideas more effectively. And plus, didn't you notice that minute attention to extravagant bits of geometry didn't always mean a map that played well? In fact, it often seemed to mean quite the opposite, that the Forger had put more thought and effort into an excess of mainly aesthetic merges than making a solid spawning system. I try and try, but I just can't see how these arguments make sense to anyone. How could an increase in options possibly make Forging worse? "It takes all the challenge out of it" etc etc. Bull, simple as. The 'challenge' that you refer to is hinderance in being able to do what we truly want when we Forge a map. Increasing options gives those who did so well in Foundry the tools to go even further, and for those who maybe aren't so great at Forge, well it gives them a chance to make more varied maps in an accessible way. It helps everyone, and if you know what you're looking for when browsing maps then it doesn't hurt you in the slightest. This is a progression, a wonderful addition to Forge (not to say that Foundry has been replaced, it still has a clear purpose, but the increase in building options we have been given is immense). I just wish people would see that and drop the old man attitude, "It was better in my day, back then you had to lift the double boxes with your bare hands, and it made it feel more worth it..." Or just this: Quoted for immense amounts of truth. Ingenuity and map design FTW.
*Sigh* I half-think some of these people,deep down are just annoyed becuase they can no longer feel smug about being able to do something that they believe most others can't
QFT! Saying that Sandbox is somehow bad because it makes it easier to build what you want is retarded. Its like the first guy who invented a pencil, and all the guys still chiseling stuff into rocks complaining that it takes all the skill out of writing. They still don't have anything worthwhile to write, but now nobody thinks they accomplished anything by writing it.
Clearly none of you understand my intentions for making this thread. So I will try to explain myself one last time, and will put it as blunt as possible... I love sandbox and its ability to enable those with quality ideas, but who are lax on time or ability. In no way am I saying everything is wrong (hence the thread title). I was merely commenting on the accessability of the map and how that brings in a lot of horrible maps that may pass appearance wise, if they are posted to the FH standard. As well I have, and most likely you all have, seen alot of maps released within the past couple weeks on sandbox which verifies my thoughts on a resurgence in map posts. These maps while looking good tend to feel generic and play sub par. While this isn't a real problem yet it could devolve into a spam filled mess of generic unsatisfying map threads. This of course being the worst case scenario. This thread is entirely based around the concern for the map thread and nothing else. PS On a side note I realise that with competetive maps it's the layout that matters towards gameplay, and a lot of forgers post this, but my comment regarding how the more time spent on a map generally implies the map plays better is still entirely true. The fact is I am not referencing a single structure/s on a map but rather the whole map. And, as I have experienced in the past, the maps one works on the longest tend to be the ones they hold with the most pride. And thusly will do the most they can to support the map and make it as good as possible.
I second that (damn kidies) Oh and btw the little kiddies are the ones that produced these kinda maps. Seriously though every party with a kiddy leader = the worst maps that only well... kiddies would play