Forging Theory My Anti-Foundry By: AZN FTW << Previous: Introduction Next: Forging a Plan >> Foundry Disclaimer “DISCLAIMER: A society where such disclaimers are needed is saddening.” -- Anonymous So before I start bashing Foundry, I'm gonna first apologize for this being a day late (had some real life problems to tend to) AND I'm gonna start off with what's good about Foundry and why YOU use it. Also, many of you may say this is obvious, but for some people it isn't. That and the fact that some people need an example for each reason not to use Foundry. So to the heart of modern day Forgehub. Foundry has been a revolution to us forgers, both pro and novice. It has introduced techniques such as interlocking and geo-merging, as well as given us our first independent forging objects. With a wide space to work with and a multitude of objects, one would ask "Why not use Foundry?". I mean seriously. Wide open space to work with, a multitude of objects to play with, a grid to build on (sorta), pretty decent warehouse feel, and the possibility of mixing things up enough to make a completely new map geometry. Those are good reasons... I'm not gonna lie. However, there are some "standards" that people are starting to follow that decreases individuality and uniqueness. It's time to break that trend. Let's move on shall we. Forging Snippets "Advice is what we ask for when we already know the answer but wish we didn't." -- Erica Jong Oh wait... before we move on to the actual theory, I'm gonna start a little something called snippets. These will be short, succint tips that can give people good guidelines to follow. Eventually these can all be compiled together to make a really good comprehensive guide to theory. First snippet: SAY WHAT!?!?!? Think about it. You can do almost anything on Foundry. The possibilities are pretty much endless with modern techniques. However EVERYONE makes maps on Foundry. Don't you want to stand out? What makes one Foundry MLG map different from the next 5... not much. Always scroll through your options first. Consider the reasoning that's about to be presented for each of the maps and decide if it would be better to build it on another map. Sometimes you have to sacrifice stuff; like objects, geometry control, etc. But what you get in return is far greater. You get the chance to stand out. And that's what being Featured is all about, right? And if you can't find a good substitute (and it's worth sacrificing alot by the way), then you know you can do it on Foundry... so go ahead. Make my day... Boxes vs Hills "The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes." -- Marcel Proust Alright so the main difference between Foundry and every other map is what? Geometry of course... that's what makes a map unique. From Sandtrap's huge deserts and catacombs to Guardian's claustraphobic, sustained in the air platforms. How often do you want an huge open box as your geometry? Not very often, right? But you say... you can make your own geometry on Foundry. Yeah, you can. But that also takes objects and budget. So what does it take to make the following base in Foundry? Let's see... maybe two single boxes per column, some double boxes to connect the top of them and create the underside, a grav lift for the side, a wall corner on top, a stair case in the back, and a wall to make the little cover where the turret goes. That's what, like around $50? You could definitely use that money for more reasonable things, like more advanced geometry (cover and what not), weapons, etc. Here's the next snippet... It's easier to give you examples for this, rather than try to explain it. A fair warning though... lots of examples that I give throughout the series will be mine, mainly because I know my maps better than everyone else's. The great Mario Tower by myself and Cottage. Sure you can build a wall on Foundry like that... but can you get that kind of height? Or can you get that kind of hill going towards it easily? No... you can't. Sure the crates move, but sometimes you have to sacrifice for uniqueness. This on Foundry would make me sad (which is why we are rebuilding it on Avalanche). And plus, this was pre-DLC anyways... lol. But you had to think like this or you couldn't make maps. High Rails by Asper49 with assistance from myself. Trying to make those pathways wind like that on Foundry would be a pain. As well as making death on the bottom. And there's no way you can re-create that feel of impending doom of possibly falling off. Which leads me to the next section... Scenery "The really happy person is one who can enjoy the scenery when on a detour." -- Unknown Let's all admit it. Foundry has gotten bland and kinda claustrophobic. And I'm tired of smelling that trash lying around. Where's my fresh air? Where's the night sky? Where's the dark tunnels? Well, let me show you the way young one. Here's a snippet and some examples: This is from BTSP's The Cellars... first ever Conquest map. Many maps have a natural lighting to designates particular sides of a map. I should have gotten the other tunnel as comparison, but I'm sure you know. You don't have access to many colors in Foundry. Also, the lighting of the tunnels... you don't have lighting control on Forge... well, not yet atleast. This is Interrobang by Debo37. You can't recreate anything like this feeling in Foundry... Foundry just gives you bleh to work with. It doesn't give you a dark spooky feeling. I'm sure this would be cool with some coloring effects. Speaking of... After-Effects and Coloring "There is no joy in a life that is all information. There is no 'juice' to that kind of life. No sweetness, no color. Like trading a beautiful golden-ripe orange for a stalk of whithered broccoli." -- Tish Grier Another thing that can't be re-created in Foundry is coloring. It's all the same general color theme. And it get's boring... if you don't mix it up. There is another theory behind this that I'll write about later "Visual Perception", but let's cover the basics. Bungie gave us effects to work with as well as colors on different maps and objects. Use them to create variety. Here's the next snippet followed by your examples. Quite the contrast eh? This is on Insane54's Fave Creeks, at the bottom of the cavern in Avalanche. The coloring in and of itself without the effect (on the left) is enough to add a unique feel to it. However you add in your effect and VIOLA!!! You've got a whole different emotion about the map. And you play different subconsiously. Now, you don't only have to use one effect. And you don't have to use them all at once. Here's a good example of what I mean: This is part of oWNo Beebo's Until Darkness map. Well what it is before darkness falls. Overtime other effects spawn and traverses the game into twilight: I just realized that I accidently put two of the same darkness stage... sorry about that. Was kind of in a hurry. Anyways, by using these effects over time you can create some unique gameplay that's worth remembering. Oh and did I mention that you don't have these effects on Foundry? These effects aren't the only thing that make this map standout. Aestheticly Appropriate Objects "Design can be art. Design can be aesthetics. Design is so simple, that's why it is so complicated." -- Paul Rand This shot is from the same map. And you know what? Those bridges and platforms that look like they belong to a treehouse are actually placed there. Definitely feels like they are part of the map, eh? Different objects that play similiarly can make that final touch to a map that it needs to feel natural. A naturally feeling map makes people not criticize the looks and instead criticize the gameplay... which is what custom games are all about right So uh... correct me if I'm wrong. You can't make that in Foundry. The curves of those watchtower base things are just awesome. This is also part of Insane54's Fave Creeks map. And remembering all we've talked about so far - Geometry, Scenery, Coloring - makes you respect this picture alot more than normal. Or is it just me... Unique Map Objects "I want all my senses engaged. Let me absorb the world's variety and uniqueness." -- Maya Angelou So uh... talking about things you can't create in Foundry, includes not only looks and geometry, but also mechanics. Some things are just made to work a certain way. So if you are given something that breaks the standard rules, abuse it. It's not often you get a massive vehicle that carries stuff with it... even objective objects. This is from Bungie's The Seven Seas map. They used the outside of territory traits to add some unique gameplay that can only be done on this map. Bungie has the right idea. And if they do something, you may want to follow along. I'll be saying this often so here's an additional snippet. This is my all-time favorite game for screenshots. This is from my old Hangin' on The Platform gametype. No other object in Halo flips and resets like this gravity platform. Everyone says Epitaph is useless to forge on. Well they are wrong. High Rails and The Platform show this... and if it wasn't for this article's theories, then nobody would use Epitaph. Or any other map other than Foundry for that matter. Conclusion "Thou arnt finished..." -- oWNo Beebo And so this concludes the first true article in this series. I hope you learned alot and expand on what I have presented to you. There is more to forging than meets the eye. You just gotta dig deep. Sometimes... very, very deep. Leave your comments and help me improve this series. I'm kind of running out of time so later I will link the maps accordingly. Gotta run folks... AZN OUT!!! << Previous: Introduction Next: Forging a Plan >>
Wow this is a really great post!!! I really see what you mean, I really want to do the thing about pit in foundry now, it could be done, and would be really awesome, thanks for the inspiration! GReat post, and that makes me want to try much harder.
I'm still trying to figure out what I should write about next... I think "Rough Drafts" would be a good follow topic. I'll cover stuff in the order you would build a map in. Maybe followed by "Path Manipulation", "Detours/Incentives", "Interior Decorating", etc... We shall see...
I now find myself not looking forward to seeing sandbox, but the other maps that will come out. Hopefully they come with some cool "gimmicks" that are not present on Foundry, or the other maps for that matter. This guide is honestly needed, seeing that most maps made now are focused on interlocking rather than uniqueness or gameplay. I'm sure everyone will get out of their Foundry fever once they see this guide.
That was one of the better reads I've seen on this site in a while and it gives people a taste of old-school forge hub. A couple of things to note though: The main reason foundry is good is because you can completely 100% design your very own un-restricted layout. People who actually know **** about making maps use foundry because its the only place where they can build a full fledged design anyway that they want, and the good mlg maps (Primarily the asymmetrical ones, not the stereotypical two base map that you're referring to). The problem is people abuse foundry by saying look at the crazy things I can do with forge, rather than trying to acheive good gameplay, which should be the goal of any good forge map. The one thing is though that if your map doesn't need to use foundry its much more interesting if you do take the initiative to use another map. Either that or take the approach from the begining of, "I want to use map A to build a map on" so you can acomplish something different. For your next guide I'd reccomend doing something about designing maps around a custom gametype as you briefly touched upon that in here, and it is another design aspect that has sort of been lost upon forge hub. Again, nice job.
First off, great thread. This needed to be said, and I can't wait for the next one of these "guides." Anyway, though I think non-Foundry maps can be great, its very tempting to throw stuff together and block off some passageways and call it a "new map," especially on Pre-DLC stuff. I've seen a bunch of maps like that on FH lately. Still, some people have done some great (recent) work on non-Foundry maps, like Castlanche by Toxic Spade. Its great to see something besides the grey and green monotony of Foundry. However, I feel like the Pre-DLC maps have already been exhausted of all their creative use. Though I understand what you're saying about how using pre-existing map geometry can save your budget, fact is, those maps don't really have any immovable objects, which mostly limits their use to Infection gametypes only. To me, it seems that the only useful non-Foundry maps are contained in the Heroic and Legendary Map Packs. Can you think of anything new and original from the Pre-DLC stuff? Its just not that versatile, and I think their time has passed. Not just because they have limited tools, but because anything Pre-DLC will inevitably get ripped apart on Forge Hub, unless it was created by TDF or Shock Theta. Or Trickmyster. Though I have not really made any actual maps on Avalanche, I think that Avalanche is probably the most versatile non-Foundry map. Not only is it large, but it has immovable objects and plenty of weapons and vehicles. What do you think? Do you think Avalanche is the best? Or do the others have equal value? Once again, great thread. I wasn't really here on Forge Hub before you "left" AZN, but its nice to have you back.
Well how bout this... I will come up with atleast 2 more pre-DLC maps that spark interest. I will take that as a personal challenge. You just think they are exhausted. There's always a little something to do on everything. You just have to use your imagination. Any forger can take hours, days, and weeks geo-merging/interlocking a beautiful map. But it takes a skilled designer to work with limited tools, and make it shine. With practice anyone can get to that point. Don't shut your mind, open it. And new possibilities will open to you.
I challenge anybody to create a Pre-DLC competitive map that feels like a new map. More specifically: Pre-DLC. Obvious Competitive. A balanced map compatible with Team or FFA Slayer, and preferably other objective gametypes. Feels New. Not just High Ground with weapon changes and a few barriers, it should really feel like I'm playing on a new map. It really can't be done. Insulation and this one TSB map on Epitaph are the only things even close, but neither quite fit the last qualification, at least not in my book. So basically that's my I think you don't see many Pre-DLC maps. A lot people play competitively and want to see their ideas turn into realities.
Truly awesome article AZN. A lot of recent maps have made me want to switch over to non-foundry, and I don't think I'll ever forge on Foundry ever again after the Conquest contest. You did forget one of the main points though. Everyone is sick of goddamn green! It's just so much more satisfying to create a map on a different level, where you can really change the way a map is played out just by adding different items or blocking doors off. You can really create a whole new map, and it doesn't have to be green!
This was a really great read and I'm waiting for the others that you're going to be publishing. Lol from that talk we had after playing on Dynamo. I actually started a Conquest map on Narrows and I have two new gametypes in mind.
I mean I am still about the Pit, if you can somehow compact it, and make it work it can turn out to be a epic map. You could make Sword room, and OS hall, it will take time, but should not be the hardest thing to do. You can make green Hall and green boxes, long hall can also be made, you can make nearly every map know as a remake on foundry, and it could looks really awesome, and maybe have the same epic game play. It Could all work as if the real map, this topic is great, and just think deep at the true meaning of what he is saying, it really inspires you.
Actually that was my specialty before I joined Forgehub at Wordpress (FH 1.0). My goal was to make maps for competitive FFA Slayer that felt like original maps. I can't guarantee a team map, but I can make a competitive FFA that feels like a new map. To make maps like this work, you have to use every trick you know in the book. Every Forging 101 comes into play. Grav lift techniques, Instant Spawn, Floating Platforms, everything... Actually I have an idea for a team competitive map. May not feel different, but it will play different. And that's the other thing. People keep thinking that they want something that looks different. They forget about the side that plays different. That's why Pre-DLC was possible back in the day. We never had Foundry for all our woes. You guys are spoiled. I'm gonna teach yall a lesson. Now don't worry my series will not focus on only non-Foundry. I will be covering basic Forging Theory that can be used on any map. If you read carefully, you can get some stuff out for Foundry maps. Like Texturing and Aesthetically correct objects... You've even got coloring in the back hallways. OH and another trick you can use to build a good map on pre-DLC are abusing Incentives. Look at Mario Tower. It feels like a completely different map because the incentives are placed on a part of the map that is not played on often. By taking advantage of these parts of the map you can truly create a new feeling map with ease. I will cover more articles and hopefully I will be able to open your guys' eyes. That's my goal with my return to Forgefub. And by the way black... Like Shock and TDF, I too can make a pre-DLC map and get it recognized... I was actually one of the guys that accepted Shock's Application to guilder. Those were the good ol' days.
you hassled me to read this, and told me you spent hours to write it.. well it was well wrote and the time was well spent. let's change the trend and stop the useless countless foundry maps.... lets think gameplay, and game variant customization... build the map around a game variant, rather build a map that looks great and throw in a game... EEEK. thats why i love you azn, and lets start on the new Mario tower soon...
I've tried remaking The Pit on Foundry a long time ago. If the actual Foundry was big enough and symmetrical in the first place, then maybe it would have been possible.
Yeah, but who wants to play a remake of something that's already installed in the game? Anyway, AZN, I hope you decide to make your next article on Detours/Incentives. That's a subject that a lot of people don't know much about, or don't use effectively, myself included. I'm gonna stop typing now, cuz I'm really hungry.
Foundry is getting bland now, and it's compomises are showing more now than ever before. Maybe I'll think twice before making another Foundry map (although i have just started another Foundry map ^^). If Sandbox is just a bigger outdoor Foundry-style map, then I'll be happy.
Absolutely brilliant post. I have not ever been interested in forge until I saw this site on bnet, and now I will NEVER, EVER, EVVVVVVVAR forge in foundry.
^ I love you... lol... anyways. I feel that Foundry has opened up possibilities for experts, but makes things too easy for new forgers. They get spoiled. It's a trade off... but right now I think the new guys need run away from Foundry for a little while. Plus if you take a break from Foundry, when you get back to it you will have new ideas. As for the next article I was thinking about Rough Drafting/Planning/Designing pretty much all together. Then followed by Incentives/Detours... FOr those who don't know what I mean by Incentives and Detours, look at Mario Tower and see how nobody really goes away from the tower... because their incentives are forward. Or think about detours towards power weapons... they may not be on your way to your objective, but they will help you achieve it and are worth the sacrifice for it. If done right. I'll explain more in that article.