I'd just like to talk about something I've noticed gameplay-wise on many of the maps I've seen here on Forge Hub. Agree or disagree, I just want to know if what I'm saying has any merit. Either that, or I'm full of it. (Hopefully not.) Anyways, the thing I've noticed is that a lot of maps, while they have some really cool forge-tacular structures that are geomerged like crazy, many maps seem to feel (at least vertically) quite divided. Let me clarify. What I'm essentially talking about is player movement. While playing on a lot of maps, I seem to have a hard time escaping when firefights break out. Let's put this is in a realistic scenario on a hypothetical map: Red Team player is running. Suddenly, he starts getting shot from behind. Unfortunately, he's stuck in a straight corridor, with really cool geomerged boxes making up the hallway, (though they are too high to jump to) and bridges above him that he can't reach. So, what's the problem? The problem is that once the other player has engaged our Red Team hero in combat, the Blue Guy has essentially won. (Unless, of course, he gets seriously out-BR'd, in which case, much teabagging will ensue.:lol The fact of the matter is, there's no route of escape. That's the problem I'm talking about. For battles and matches to stay consistently balanced and replayable, the player needs routes of escape, ways to mix things up. If you build your map with a stark hallway, each battle in that hallway is going to remain stuck to a single formula. Shoot, shoot, strafe, strafe, grenade, die. Complain about lag or host's BR. Although most people don't realize it, the defining characteristic of Halo's addictive formula is that it gives players a choice in each and every combat scenario. On Forge Hub, many of the maps I've seen, while they don't necessarily have the hallway I've used as an example, don't seem to provide adequate routes of escape. Here's my central thought: Three-dimensional combat is inherently better. What needs to be fixed in so many current maps is how the player moves from floor to floor. Add a ramp, add a staircase. Give the player a chance to gain the high ground or dodge away. Mix things up. You'd be surprised just how much one ramp can change a scenario. Want an example? The Pit. To me, The Pit is the pinnacle of this idea. There are ramps, pits(duh), cover, muliple-tiers, you name it, The Pit's got it. The mistake that some people might already be making while reading this is that they're thinking, "Okay, I'll just stick in a crate or Grav Lift. That should work, right?" NOOOO. It doesn't. That kind of sharp, vertical movement is what is causing the problem. Thing is, it's just not natural. People need smooth flow from floor to floor for it to be effective. Plus, jumping screws with your aim a lot more than smoothly walking up a ramp. To sum up: Don't give the player a long straight hallway. Mix it up. Give the player a chance to turn things in his favor by grabbing the high ground and dodging around a corner. That's what I think, at least. That was a lot. Sorry. So yeah. That's it. Instead of bumping, I'll just add to the original post: That's what I mean when I say that the jumping just isn't natural. Though Halo does revolve around circle-strafing and jumping, jumping from structure to structure disturbs the player from what he's trying to do: move around the map and generally kick ass. If you have players who aren't so skilled at the jumping thing, and if that's the only way from getting from Floor 1 to Floor 2 or Point A to Point B, you (The Mapmaker) have essentially limited the gameplay for all of those people. Not good. EDIT: I have purposely not named any of the maps that I have noticed. This is not because I can't remember them. It's because I don't want to put specific blame on people. If the creator were to see this thread, I don't want them to start complaining and defending their creations. I want to make this clear: I'm not attacking you. I'm simply stating what I think could be improved in general. This thread is supposed to be a discussion, not a flame war. Some good quotes to add on to this:
I see what your coming from. The problem I have more is that it seems that now you have to be on a structure or platform if you are to survive...standing on the ground is only there for movement between structures and running away. I hate how you have to jump up on a structure, shoot other guys on structures, so on. What ever happened to the floor, and having height advantages when you did get to a higher spot (notice on Foundry the highest you can go is 2 boxes high...its not a pyramid of structures going up to the top of the map).
I see the trend how everyone likes it... but me personally, I don't use ramps in gameplay, ever, and barely ever use lifts. I'd much rather do jumps, wall jumps, ghosts etc. It adds strategy and more for fun for myself. Because of that I tend to not use them in my maps. :-( lol. although I should. I'm not saying that is the right thing at all. Just why I tend to not use them, cause of personal opinion. That's what I was trying to do with curbstomp. :-D
I agree. The newest map I began, I am trying to use more elevation. I am also trying to make it smooth instead of jumping. I have began to realize jumps aren't the best to have in a map. If you look at real maps, there are no jumps.
I'm glad how somebody brought this up. I was just thinking about something similar to this - how irritating structures can be when you get killed while trying to climb up on top of them. A great example is mlg's amplified centerpiece - that's probably one of the most annoying things to climb while getting shot. Sometimes I get very frustrated with maps that limit movement to jumping. I know for sure now in my next map, I'll be promoting ramps rather than boxes to jump onto.
I couldn't agree with you more, it seems today people are all about one ramp to a floor, and 1000 jumps. Not to mention, a lot of maps don't have much variation between ground, box1, box2 floors. My philosophy is that you only make them jump in three scenarios. 1) Jumping to a power weapon, 2) Jumping to a position of power, 3) Jumping to gain access to somewhere more quickly. I'd like to see more diverse flooring patterns, less random aesthetics and scenery and more ramps.
My first and second map use elevation a lot. In fact, the entire themes were centered around it. But yeah, getting stuck in a hallway when both players have BRs isn't skill; it's chance based on who gets shot first.
A very much needed thread. I can see where you're coming from although I have to disagree about some things about escaping the enemy. Not every map has to have a solid route or two to escape through. Some maps need those large open places where you can get caught for an inevitable death. Its just in the nature of halo 3's repetitive gameplay. I mean sure you can throw around some very skilled Xanon Ninja Assassination moves here and there but sometimes thats all you can do to keep yourself from getting killed. Thats just the way Halo works.
You've made a good point. It's true, there are some places where maps need to have open spots. A good example of this is the courtyard on The Pit. (I know, I've used this as an example map multiple times) You need to have a balance between movement and restriction when building a map. Its like that saying: "Everything in Moderation." The problem that I'm discussing here does talk about escape, but believe me when I say that there should be places where the player should be punished for wandering around while completely exposed. Every map needs to have routes for movement, but there should also be well-placed restriction to promote good flow. Sometimes, obstacles can promote movement just as much as new paths can. This quote basically sums up everything I've been trying to say so far. So if you want a less wordy explanation, read this. Thanks, Toxic!
I see where you're going. You know what another thing is. Alot of competitive maps these days look alot alike. Just looks like random things interlocked and geomerged to make some asymetric map.
Oh, I see what you mean, I have had this same problems on a few maps, the personal thing I like to do best try to make something like the pit as you have said, and have it kinda like green hall how you can go into invisibility corner like thing just to get out of the way of shots, or down in Over shield hall how you can walk up the ramp, and it feels natural so you don't have to jump. I also understand if you are jumping up it does through your aim of plus there is a chance of not making the jump, because most of the turn out to be crouch jumps, but I really think that wouyld be a good Idea to have a sort of ramp, I now fell like making a map like that, well thaanks for the insperation!
Unfortunately, your grammar does not feel so natural. I think that would definitely be a good way to test your map before you post it, to make sure everything flows just right. Thanks, Rusty!
That nub stole my quote ... I taught you that fool... tell them the truthz... And I'm glad to see that some people do realize that Aesthetics is not everything... to add on to the quote that rusty jacked (lol I still love you bro...) you also have to add the elevation concept into that. Just because your map can be traversed without jumping because your map is flat doesn't mean that it is smooth... There also has to be obstacles in particular places to enable cover at key points... there should never be too much openness. Unless the sacrifice of cover gets you something. Valhalla is a good example of this. The cover is on the edges of the map... while the open spots allow you to cover ground faster, but it leaves you vulnerable... remember that. I will bring back gameplay teachings from the grave...
Yes that is another good reason to have a good open spot... like I said, there has to be some reward for the open spot... but if it's just an open hallway, things are going to work. And remember you don't want a hallway too narrow (most of the time)> The main reason is people do move from one side to the other to dodge...
Usually, those open spots tend to occur in the center of every map. But I wonder what would happen if somebody reversed that, and had the edges of the map open?
WALL OF TEXT: I agree with this thread 100% of the way. Yet i still believe jumps can be quite useful, yet usually work best when they are an alternate route to a ramp/walkway. An example that uses this in an outstanding way is Guardian. There are many jumps on this map to get to the next level that most people don't mind and use often. This is because (a. they are an alternate way to a certain point and allow somewhat of a surprise, (b. because they have effective placing, unlike the way you see them used on many forged maps. These jumps can be effective escape routes, help you in surprising the opposing team, or even just a quicker way of movement when that speed is needed. A good example of this is the elbow to S1 jump. First, it is much quicker than walking to S2, dropping down and then walking to the point you land. it can also help you escape or even kill the person because if they a) chase you, it can give you enough time to throw a well-placed nade and take 'em out with your BR, or B) if they decide not to chase, seek cover near green (seeing as there isn't much at bottom mid and if you take cover there you are an easy nade target). So this jump is useful and effectively placed, yet still not the only way from Point A to Point B like used in most forged maps, allowing an easier, smoother path to most players and making the map more enjoyable to newer players. In Summary: Maps that require jumping aren't bad unless used to an extent to where it hurts gameplay. Maps should have walkways to nearly everything, yet have skill jumps (keyword skill, not meaning random jumps that anyone can do) to add alternative routes to players with more map awareness. This makes the map more enjoyable for anyone that plays it, being the 1st time or the 1000th. Also open areas are great too. Gaurdian top-mid is a nice way to have advantage over lower ground players, yet you make yourself vulnerable to other opposing team members. And also you should be punished for going to some areas of the map, so you don't have too much of an advantage or just adding a weak point to your setups.
Nice thinking outside of the box, but it doesn't really work that way. Opening up an area is one deference... and being on the edge of the map is another. There has to be enough reward to make it worth it. Cuz you gotta think, people are going to travel towards their objective naturally, if the edges of the map are out of the way, then they have to detour... detouring is not something people are fond of, unless the benefits out way the sacrifice. Keep that in mind... I should add that to my Forging Theory subjects... Detours/Incentives. I'll cover it in one of those articles...