Debate God

Did you know he killed children?

 

well, ill tell you why its important to me, and please, dont assume im raising my temper, the last thing id want to do is affend someone, i just simply want to get my thoughts out. and ill be back later to comment on Hotpakkaminnies post, because i highly doubt thats a credible statement, and dont get my wrong, im the first one to tell you im not a hard core christian.

i didnt become a christian because everyone else was doing it, and ive been in the agnostic seat, because what seems more important to you? believing in what you see as the best possible choice given to you by a set of unbiased information through time and the progressian of the human intellect, or blindly going with what would seem somewhat of a hope? i know its youre own common sense is what drives you, i know you want it to be proven to you, and i know that this path youre go on gives you the statement- you cannot expect me to believe in something so crazy, im better than that. and i dont blame you, i really dont. id like to say im running off of absolute certainty, but that would call for my actually witnessing god myself, coming to me and talking. but what would this accomplish for him? hed have me forever, but hes looking at the bigger picture-humanity. i know what id do too, id go tell everyone i could, but they wouldnt believe me. if he showed himself to everyone, then there would be no faith in him, to show that youre really commited to him, and what hes done(yea i said done, but just stick with me). if everyone just said, aww, there he is, then hed be simple supplying us with heaven, because who would dissobey god? if hes just supplying heaven to his people, then wouldnt that mean hes a servent? here you go my people, your heaven is here.

but not just him being the peoples servent, it would ultimately destroys our choice. he shows himself and all of sin would vanish. by putting us here, with only faith to guide our way to heaven, and at the same time putting all the blame on youreself, to show humiltiy in the face of god, that i know i did this wrong, and i know ive lived wrong, but the since you say you forgive me, then i know my place is behind you, and then (stick with me here) since jesus died on the cross for our sins to be forgiven, then you are without sin. correct? -you are with god then, you are without sin, because he said he forgives you, and since god is pure good, then you can go be with him in heaven.

now, ive said alot more then i came here to say, but what it mainly comes down to it, is, anything besides faith, and your choice, goes out the window, and the good lord has a bunch of robots to put up with, instead of people who want to get to know him. and honestly, if becoming an athiest again only leads to "understanding" that this world is just a joyride to live up, then burn out and then what? then i dont have a reason to live for JUST 100 years. well, the reason why im a christian, is because i see the impact in me, and i see i can put up with things now, and people too, and the normal pains and cuts of life, and face them with humble hands, to think of everyone else instead of myself, which i dont always make happen, but im flawed, and theres nothing i can do about it. if there is nothing after this, then what do i have to live for? what if im wrong? -im gone, youre gone. we're all gone. but what if im not?

and i wouldnt want to live any other way, then to say i lived, for all the years i believed i might reach, to be with the ultimate father figure, and ultimate salavtion. so thats why im going to live for others, not that you cant, or any other athiest cant, but its what i think is the most respectable way, by faith, the hard way, by this bible, and the one i will never regret. and theres plenty of reason i have for the way i believe this, the way my real life father and i are in a mode of offense but defense to everyone around us, to my mother and all others in our family, to show them that christians are unbrakeable, but we just arent. im probably not done on this thread still, so the ideal ending i had in mind ended up there at I WILL NEVER REGRET, but this isnt a movie, i know people. i am not a hardcore christian.

 

Nitrous, God first started showing His power to keep His people, the Israelites, alive. He again started showing his power once His Son came to earth. He will again show his power when His Son returns.

I'm just thinking here, but if God started showing mirales, people would start forcing others to believe, just like they did before. What's faith and love if you don't have a choice?

 

as ive said already, they were for the people they led, not just for them. and hes not hidding, hes supplying us with our free will. and they werent forced, Jesus IS god, the 3, father, spirit, son, are the same, God. and god asked them (not Jesus, who is him) to go and lead my people like this, because gods followers were good and faithful, and needed real life guidance in a leader. and he doesnt choose favorites, think of it as a father, who rewards the child when staying kind and good, but then punishes the bad child, not necessarily by inflicting pain, but by taking protection away from the child. God people the jews became bad once and they were sent into the desert, (i think by an opposing army) for 40 years. he deals punishement as it is deserved. and i just explained why he doesnt prove himself. come on Nitrous stay with me here, just try to consider it and understand everything, im putting in front, and then id be happy to hear your point. youre kinda jumping around with stuff ive already stated. revealing himself would destroy what he wants ultimately, the followers who are willing to give their only life(what has been told to them could be their only life) and everyones free will would be in a non exhistance, having an almighty power at your back at all times would make you act differently in the world.

 

sorry because youre reading the rough drafts of what i mean, because i type slow and i can only proof read afterward, because im sent offline after a while. no, what i mean by "not necessarily infliction pain, but by taking protection away from the child" i mean, that say the real life person would be in a state of good wealth, then, something happens and his life changes suddenly and drastically in a negative way. many chances are given. i dont see why god is a bad guy here.....

 

Numbers 31:17, 40

[Verse 17, Moses says:] "Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

 

But did it ever occur to you Snake, how all of the biblical stories are just small events exaggerated and made supernatural?

Obviously it cannot be fully proven, but what makes more sense:

A: The jews in Egypt are tortured and enslaved and so they want freedom. A man named Moses comes and, after talking to a burning bush that was actually God, tells the evil Pharaoh to let his people go, and when the Pharaoh refuses, he, with God's help, unleashes ten plaques unto Egypt. Finally, the jews escape to the red sea, where they are trapped, but suddenly God splits the red sea, they escape, and then the sea crushes the Egyptian forces.

B: The jews in Egypt are tortured and enslaved and so they want freedom. Around the same time, heavy rainfall occurs on baked soil, leading to sediment-rich water flowing into the Nile from tributaries where the underlying soil and rocks are red. Egyptians often spoke of the “red lands” surrounding the fertile, “black lands” they occupied. The sediments would also have killed the fish, as described in the Bible.

Next, frogs would begin to appear in great numbers after such rainfall, and the plagued, sedimentary water. As well, lice would have formed from such arid weather followed by rainfall. And since lice spreads fast, in a time of such bad hygine, it would be considered another plague.

Again, the unusal weather conditions can then lead to midges and flies led to the area by the weather, which can become so many that herds and cattle would need to be sheltered. This led to the pestilence, which would have been caused by the increase in insects in the area. The bites would infect and boil, and so cattle could die and humans would have such horrible boils.

The “fiery hail” could have been the large hailstones accompanied by ball lightning that sometimes appears during severe, dramatic storms. The locust swarms would also have been caused by severe environmental conditions, and a dense storm could also have produced the darkening of the skies described in the Bible.

Also, the beasts, again, another migration due to weather.

As for the death of the firstborn. It is hard to pinpoint that one exactly. If it was only the firstborns of each family cannot be proved, but it is possible they died from some sort of disease spread due to the previous plagues, especially the pestilence and lice, which due to the primitive medical fields in ancient times, probably would end in death.

Now, the Egyptians think that this is all the jews fault, so the exodus occurs. The jews flee, Pharaoh changes his mind and chases them. The jews, upon reaching the red sea, can cross due to low tides, but as they walk, it slowly shifts to high tide, and by the time the egyptians reach them and enter the water, the jews are across, and the water is too deep now to cross, granting the jews official freedom from Egypt.

Which sound more realistic? The supernatural, and or just the natural nature.

Of course all of those plagues cannot be proven, but I think the second one clearly makes more sense than the first story.


EDIT: Source

 

I can't really see your point about justifying faith over proof and revelation on God's part. If he were to reveal himself to us, it would hardly make him our servant just because he 'rewards' us with heaven without faith on our part. If a master rewards his slave for good behaviour, do they reverse positions? No. And I don't agree that everyone would suddenly embrace his morality, even if they could no longer question his existence. It would merely be a case of people being coerced into his moral system for fear of hell or, at the very least, denial from heaven. This, to my mind, only serves to highlight the same flaw within the principle of God's requirements, with the added demands of faith taking it even further. Not only does God create existence, then demand that we follow rules often contrary to the nature he has bestowed upon us. But, on top of that, he refuses to even make his existence explicit, demanding 'faith' to even have a chance at meeting his moral code. Compassion in terms of creation would, to me, mean creating an existence where people were happy as a base state of being (and don't pull the whole free will=suffering at times stuff, if he can do it in Heaven, then he can do it full stop). Yet he creates us simply to test and challenge us, and only reward those who he sees fit.

As with you Snake, I wish to offend no one by this, but this is genuinely the way God comes across to me, and no one has ever managed to put him forward to me in a way that doesn't make him seem this way to me. I genuinely can't see what you mean by what he has 'done for us'. If you're referring to the sacrifice to absolve the sins of humanity, then this just seems like another of the circular arguments that plague religion. The proposition of saving us from our sins seems flawed in that the only reason what was done was sinful is because God himself decreed it so. God is so often put forward as 'saving us' from our current existence in one way or another, but this neglects the fact that the only reason we exist at all is because of him.

The only way I could reconcile God's creation with compassion would be if life after death worked quite differently. Creation should work on a null base state of being, and if God wants to reward those who follow the moral code he lays out then that's fine. But after giving free will, he should not punish those who utilise it in any way. If it were a case of: If you have faith and follow the teachings of God then you are rewarded with Heaven, and if you don't then you simply die and cease to exist, then that would seem compassionate and reasonable to me. It is reasonable, after creating, to reward those who act as you see good, but punishing those who don't, and having no base state of being, just seems unreasonable to me. 'Here, have some existence. You can do what you want, but if you use that to do things other than I say, prepare to suffer for eternity". A case in point is the age old Garden of Eden, and no one has ever explained to me satisfactorily why it was how it was, metaphor or not, the principle is flawed imo. We've all heard it before, but why did he put the tree there? It's not as if it wasn't in his power not to do so, so why, just to test what he had created and punish it when it displeased? I see no reason to thank God if he does exist, the only reason I could possibly see would be my existence alone, but if I exist solely to be tested then no thanks.

Once again, I do not mean any offence by these statements, but they are how I feel and how I perceive the proposition. I'd also say that when I use words like 'fair' or 'reasonable', I am using them in terms of my own morality, and how I perceive the actions and premises of God, not how they 'are'. If God does exist, obviously I would not expect my morality to apply to him, it would make no sense, but this is simply why I cannot resolve such issues in my own mind, and therefore could never bring myself to thank or worship God, assuming I theoretically overcame the underlying hurdle of believing in him in the first place.

 

It's funny how religious people claim to know what God will do. Why? Because it was written in a really old book that says so. How do you know that book is right? I dunno, lol. You can't prove anything.

Then there are folks who get hit with a hard question and say, "Well, the good lord just works in mysterious ways." Yet they "know" everything else that God will do, because he's just so open with us, isn't he? "Oh you idiot Eons, God revealed his plans to the disciples!" Well, how do you know that all the stories in the bible are true? What if it was messed with through its existence? How do these mere mortals know so much about God?

So when God started showing miracles through Jesus, his followers started to force others into believing? This use of force only occurred when "miracles" occurred? What about during the 1700s or whatever, when the church forced Galileo to renounce his findings on the universe since they went against the church? What about the Crusades? What about now?

Even if this stuff is true, what's the point? Just to say I told you so? Imagine the end of the world:
A Christian says, "Haha, you atheists! We told you God would come again!" An atheist, who has lived a humble and giving life, says, "So what? God's letting me in anyway."

Unless of course, you really think that any who do not believe in God will burn for eternity. (Or whatever the punishment is. Oh but wait, how do you know what happens to sinners anyway?)

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Love, Humans, & Advancement

Why don't you set us(society) straight on love. Who are we allowed to love and what has been misconstrued?

I agree with you for once. Scientists are definitely human. What are the people that penned the bible? Why don't you clear it up? Can we agree that the bible was written by human beings(even if they claim the material came from god)? Would you trust our human scientists more if instead of providing lengthy scientific journals to support their work, they just said "God whispered to me in a dream that genetic mutations caused the evolution of species on our planet, and I wrote it down."?

Are we more or less advanced than we were 2,000 years ago?

 

He makes a valid point.

Anyone can claim that God has spoken to them, but how do you filter those who actually spoke to God and which people just made it all up? You can't. So how do we know God has spoken to us at all?

Just because people claim the Bible came from God, doesn't mean that it wasn't altered during the hundreds of years it has existed. People are corruptible, and will manipulate anything to get their way.

 

i am a devoted catholic and believe strongly in god and the holyspirt, idc what anyone says ill always have my faith

 

Sorry, but this is a debate thread. You need to justify why. =P
Faith in what?

 

ill reply from you all, i just need a little time, im starting from up there where i left off with Hotpokk. (but after this post and the next, i forgot about Nitrous, who ill reply to when someone comes afterward) if you read 1 sentence before what you stated, it says this "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the lord in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the lords people." he commanded all of them killed, because they were the ones responsible for enticing Israel into Baal worship, so god commanded Israel to destroy them, or taking away sin immediately, instead of allowing it to linger, with a nonchalant attitude, like they did before and where sent into the desert because of it. to put it into perspective, its like you hanging out with a gang and getting in trouble, then even though they might hate you for you could get on their bad side, you leave. but thats just my interpretation.....

 

yes, this is true. but the bible can speak in different terms to not overly confuse things, like explaining everydetail, or making the bible a five foot wide mass, no one would attempt to read. like, there may not even be a garden of eden on this planet, but to save time explaining himself, he said he just banished them and they lived here. i agree that all of those things have possible explanations, but the fact that they ALL happened so near each other, to ruin egypt, right after moses left, seems like a mighty unlikelyness.......im not arguing with you that those are the things happening, its just...at vertually the same time.....all those coincidences, that seems harder to believe then believing it actually was an almight power.

please excuse the double posting, i still needed people here updating before i have time to keep talking. does double posting or even triple here still have its bad reprocusions? because i can give my thoughts on alot of statements at a time, where as waiting would only provide more, but answereing them all at the same time would take up alot of room, and i want to go as in depth as possible to make things as clear as i can. again sorry.

 

I watched a movie type documentary thing about Moses. I'll give you the basic gist of it.

Moses leads the Jews away from Egypt, so after a while he goes in the cave(by himself), a few days later he comes out with the ten commandment(which was obviously written by God). He finds his people worshiping a golden cow, he then says, "these are the commandments from God, stop worshipping that cow etc etc". Not everyone agrees, so you know what he does? He gets his people to fight their people. After the battle he ties up the women and children, who he asks to convert again, the ones that said no were stoned to death.

Again, correct me if I'm wrong.