"The Door Property" - Realistic Concept that would Revolutionize Forge

And the meaning of the analogy remains wrong. Giving people tools to build something better will not make everyone out there suddenly creative.

 

I think you are missing what he's saying. The Mona Lisa (Insert another famous painting) are famous and regarded as "good" for reasons other than they are painted well. They are unique, or send a certain message.

The same is true with maps, just because everyone can do awesome interlocks doesn't mean everyone can make a good map. Making a map is about so much more than interlocking. Maps don't even need to be interlocked at all if they have good weapons, a good layout and good spawns (I.e gameplay, which is what a map is actually about). People have just become too accustom to maps being judged on 1) the creator 2) How "pretty" it is. Really, there is nothing hard about using other items to line up your boxes, it just takes time. This method would just save that time, as well allow for more difficult merges to be done.

Saying that having the ability to do perfect interlocks with ease would lead to an overflow of unoriginal, boring and now mediocre maps is basically saying that Far Cry's map creator is going to fail. Personally, I'm not dropping forge for it, but thats just me.

Edit: Oh and on topic, yes this would be a nearly perfect and relatively easy solution if the game was not already released but it is near impossible to change the games physics at this point. In recon maybe, but like Bungie said, there will be no changes to the game engine. Honestly, I think it's more fun having to outsmart bungie. Or maybe Bungie just likes seeing us work around issues.

 

probally wont be good, i bet some noobs will make " the magicla never disapearing box, that in all actuality, is just bunch of boxes interlocked into each other.
and about nemi's painting argument, most paintings are admired for the skill needed to make them, and if everyone could make somthing like that, then the original would be less amazing, and most of us, especcialy in aesthetic maps, admire the SKILL used in making the map, and if noobs could make it, "real" forgers (those who interlock the current way) would be underrated

 

Halo 3: Recon is actually just a Campaign addition to the Original Halo 3, not an entirely new game. So don't say to look out for it, for it will be the same game as before, just an extra Campaign Side-story added to it.

 

No not at all. Sure, aesthetic maps are admired for the skill it takes to create them, but at the same time they are admired more so for creativity and message. Thats what art is, not really about the skill to create the painting. How many people do you think can today paint the mona lisa? I'm betting a lot, even without our modern technology. Does that make it any less "good"? No not at all, the Mona Lisa is good because of the hidden messages, the controversy, the mystery in something so simple. Thats art.

So that was aesthetic maps, but competitive maps? Non argument, competitive maps are about so much more than "teh intarlokz". Tex's LMM contest. /end arguement

 

no, no what i mean is that everyone would be able to give you "the funnest halo 3 experiance", therfore making it mundane and normal, therfore no longer the best

 

No, just no. Designing maps with great lines of sight, movement, weapons, spawns, aesthetics, and balance would be exactly as hard as it is today, and the vast majority of us would still not be coming up with good map ideas. Creating the map would be easier and less time consuming, and editing it later would be easier. Giving people "the funnest experience" is not purely a question of how smooth or pretty a map is, it isn't even close.

The fun comes from gameplay, and gameplay is only slightly related to interlocking and geomerging. If you think that interlocking and geomerging are the biggest influences on how fun a map is, then I can't really argue with you because you're not actually playing the maps. I could perfectly interlock a whole damn room full of boxes and geomerge walls at angles like crazy, and it would play like **** because no matter how hard it was to build it like that, it was still a shitty idea.

 

It is time to post here... I will not be quoting, but referring to what some people have said, and I will go part by part in the reasons why this would not be a good idea.

First off, let me first begin off by stating why Forge is such a success. It is a really simple theory that works... it's called simplicity. Before interlocking, before geomerging, back in the time where objects were moveable, what did we do? Not much, it was easy and simple. You needed no instruction manual, it was self explanatory. Pull up list with 'x', place it with 'a', pick up with 'a', turn with joy sticks + left and right triggers. Minimal use of buttons, spare a couple combinations that were easy to do, and you could create a map.

Then came floating objects, such as teleporter nodes and using it to suspend crates. You still used the same buttons as before, nothing in that sense changed. Interlocking, then geomerging, but still, no more buttons were used than before, no combinations needed, just a process to get the desired result. Forge, makes full use of the controller buttons, without have a series of buttons to press to get what you desired.

Now, lets go into this idea with the door thing. You would press 'x' and switch it to "Yes" for interlocking. Okay, issue 1 arrises. Actually, several. First off, doors interlock and geomerge, would a box do the same? If not, the box moves through any placed object, drifting like butter. What if you need to things lined up exactly? Well good luck placeing it like so without any support. Now, what if it does geomerge? Well then the box would be nothing, and it can slip through everything making it impossible to place anywhere. So, then the only solution left is to have only the edges interlock/geomerge, but again issues arise. Say if it geomerges as well? Boxes will partially sink when you want them higher when interlocking. Oh that's fine, it would only be slight enough margins to interlock smoothly, and the geomerge will cut out the curved bottoms of boxes which grenades slipe through, so alls good right? Wrong, what about braces? The box you set against the other box as a brace, well your immovable object will slide right through it too.

So, imagine this. Place box 1. Place box 2, and set interlock "Yes", and place it as a brace against box 1. Set interlock "No". Spawn box 3, set to "Yes" and fit it in place. Delete box 2. There you have it, two very well aligned boxes. But look at all the menu switching you had to do. But no, I am not done with the issues, not yet, for the biggest issue remains. You guys will still complain, cause that is all people seem to be good at, why? Well only the edges will interlock, leaving the center of the box whole. This means, say you want a diagnol interlock, or other complex interlocks? Well guess what, your ass is still gonna have to restart round the good ole' fashion way. I can't wait to listen to people ***** some more requesting that they can then have a switch that says (Edge Interlock "Yes") and (Complete interlock "yes"). Things just getting more and more complicated to do an already easy as hell task.

Now, someone said "What, you don't want things to be easier? To rush through your project faster than most forgers already do?" Well, no, of course not. Good forging takes time, it is an art in a sense, and people produce maps fast enough. Giving them a new tool in which they can do it even fast, with perhaps sloppier results would only make map quality worse on FH. Its not that we want things harder, we want things simple, and concrete.

Another person said "It's not about looks, it's about gameplay." Thanks for the optomistic views, and the joke. Look around FH, friends, look around. Very, very few maps have great gameplay, even feature maps. Temple of Atlas is an obvious one, but many maps have only decent gameplay. No, it is the looks of a map, not the gameplay. Maps that lack in gameplay get some slack. Maps that lack in clean interlocking and other forge techniques, but play well, get the short end of the stick. Sorry, it's the truth. Even to further demonstrate this point, find a map post which has 1 - 5 pictures. Look a the comments, I garuntee you they say "Need more pictures". People judge maps right off the bat based on looks. They ignore weapon placement diagrams, and other gameplay related additions, but go straight for the pictures.

Now, find a map post, and find a picture in it where it appears there is not interlocking. You will find a comment asking "Does this map even have interlocking?" base don that one pic. Trust me, I've seen it plenty more than I should. If you see a picture that appears to have sloppy interlocking, comments will read "Needs better interlocking."

But the topper to this, is the typical FH response. "Really cool map, looks good and has good interlocking." You see posts similar to this more than any other, and look, that "review" or "map comment" is all about the looks. "Looks good" "good interlocking". I am sorry, but it is obvious, FH judges maps on looks, not gameplay, first, if at all.

Do we really want everyone to do "good interlockz" when they hardly try? I say reserve those comments for those who actually take their time with their maps, use braces, and don't complain that it could be easier. I've been working on a map for over a month, and have commented once on how hard it is to interlock, or geomerge, the whole time to anyone. I accept it, as should everyone else. Forge, is simple. Simple is win. Forge, is win. It's as simple as that.

 

Complete interlocking would be the norm I would think, because it wouldn't actually be that hard to line up a brace, set an already placed item to interlock mode, and then line up your new item and turn interlock mode off. This is certainly a lot simpler than placing an item, placing the brace, setting spawn time 180, spawn at start, no minimum = 0, start new round, place the new object, delete brace, min = max, spawn at start yes, min = 0.

Yea, Forgehub judges based on that right now because we have a problem with people reviewing without downloading the map. I don't know how this could be solved right now, but just because people are morons doesn't mean we shouldn't wish for better tools for building what we want. Plus, if "good interlockz" became easy, then surely they would no longer be the basis for judgement right? Once getting something to look smooth is no longer an accomplishment, getting it to look cool or unique will be the new superficial way to judge.