Debate is God the Devil?

Speaking in riddles doesn't contribute to the debate, though. If you're going to make a point (IE: The dog jumped the fence.), don't say, "The dog didn't not jump the fence." Be forthright.

Furthermore, @Sushi, God did not invent wanking. God gave us our bodies. God gave us things like sex, but we perverted them. We changed them into what they are. In its context, sex is an amazing thing. However, when not practiced rightfully, it leads to some form of unrest.

 

I bold-ed where your argument sways toward assumption. Your opening argument doesn't question the existence of God. So, derivatively, I'm going to say that your statement believes in some form of "greater being." Now, this "greater being," which you've obviously acknowledged, must have a greater knowledge of the world, its inhabitants, etc. What you might consider to be God's failure to "do all He can" might actually be something completely contrary. Who are you and I to dictate just what the acknowledged Creator of the world is doing?

1. Refer to above.
2. I've previously mentioned this umpteen times. Free will drives us. Satan had free will, and he chose to challenge God. The first man and woman put us in this situation, and we suffer because of their decisions, not God's.

Free will. Jeez, no one seems to understand the ability of free will. Has your world controlled you to the point that you see being controlled a superior to free will?

Hmm, I'll form a rebuttal with an analogy.

Let's say that you have two sons. One son works hard, takes good care of his money, and is planning on maintaining a family. The other got heavily involved in the drug scene at a young age. He now deals an assortment of drugs. He's arrested once at age 21 for drug abuse and gets out {X} months later. Years later, he's caught dealing to a group of high school kids. He's sentenced to years in jail. As a loving parent, do you want to see your child continue to live in his immoral world, or are you going to "save" him from his problems? In order to reform his life, he needs a certain amount of suffering to properly learn his lesson.

 

What if God and the devil are really good friends, and are even two seperate gods?
That would actually make sense. Just like how there are good and evil gods in older socioties, like the greeks and romans.

The devil may just be doing his job?

Just a thought...

 

That is a really satisfying answer. I appreciate it, nobody has ever stayed with me long enough to answer that. Thank you. I do have one problem though. They changed the world, so instead of being immortal and young (and kinda stupid ) forever they lived to be 800 years old. I don't know if that was due to preflood conditions, but after the flood people lived to be 500 years old consistently til dropping off into the 100's. Now I'm not scientist or anything, but 800 years is extreme. Even 100 years old exceeds the 40 yr life expectancy. Before the agricultural revolution it would have been around 20 yrs.

By science's terms we have an appropriate life expectancy due to our advances. However, it seems the more we advance, in biblical terms, the less we live. My question to you is, why do we not live to be 200+ years old?

Why did god send either me or other people to earth to die and burn in hell?

1. Under an all-knowing god you do not have free will. Even in a universe without god you don't have free will. It's a concept we think we have.

2. Assuming I will die, and I will go to hell - why would god send me to earth just to die.

3. Blasphemy is an unforgivable sin. Saul only murdered, he wasn't too far gone. I am.

You think if god took the time to inspire the book he'd take the time to maintain it so it was his true word. Otherwise the bible would just be absolute crap and I know you don't think that. Besides if that was lost in translation maybe the entire story of creation or Jesus was just lost in translation.

The harmony of the books to you would suggest authenticity. I couldn't disagree more. How many other religious texts were compiled over time and then used as one complete religion? Gee, the Quran to name one. Judaism to name another.

Eternal sounds good. People will never learn their lesson, send them forever. Matter of fact, might as well just kill him now so hell can deal with him. He was going there anyway. Save some money, right?

 

First, let me explain my stance. I will do what is within my power to answer your questions. I'm participating in this debate as much for my own benefit as yours. It's urging me to study and learn more about what I think of the subject. In no way am I a scholar of any sort. I'm capable of answering incorrectly, and I'm even more capable of being entirely ignorant to some questions you may ask. I say that humbly and while earnestly seeking the proper answers.

Glad to hear my rambling excuse for a response was satisfactory. I'd like to say that this is my favorite kind of debate. Stuff like this can be debated based on facts from thousands of different reference sources. It's pure fun to me. Spiritual matters deal with a lot of "unknowns," ya know?

Anywho, I'd first examine the differences in culture. For starters, at least 90% of the food we eat has been processed or artificially enhanced in some way. A majority of the meat you buy is from animals that were given growth stimulants. Only a fool would believe that we know exactly what we're dealing with. We've come plenty far, but we're still ignorant. You mentioned the pre-Flood conditions, and that makes a lot of sense as well. The entire earth is said to have been similar to a hyperbaric chamber. That kind of atmosphere certainly must have had less negative effect on our bodies.

Spiritually, I cannot come up with an explanation. The two previous ones were simply logically-based, but I have no place to claim God's reasoning for the decline of life length.

RAH! I hate how posts get to thirty different mini-debates because of little disagreements. I'd like to stick to the core structure, if possible, but I understand. That said, I covered (to the best of my ability) your first paragraph in my last section. As per your second question...

I don't believe that He sent you here to die and burn in hell. Sure, I feel that He knew the decision you would make. However, you've heard His way to heaven at least once, and I feel that the decision now lies within you. They're not sent for the purpose of going to hell. They make that decision on their own. This could be because of their pure disagreement with the Bible or even the way Christians act, but at some point, I feel that every person is given the opportunity.

1. All-knowing =/= all-deciding. I've covered this. In my opinion, He only knows what you will decide. He does not decide it for you. If you disagree, then this can no longer be debated because neither of us are God.

2. I covered this in response to the previous quote. Again, to the best of my ability.

3. My Bible says that as long there is breath, there is hope. This isn't me pushing my beliefs on you or trying to "recruit you." It's simply me telling you that, while you may consider yourself too far gone, you are not. No living person is.

Secondly, the last part of your retort, while maintaining sound logic, is mostly speculation. I feel the inspired Bible to be His true word, as you have stated against. My goal in that post was to say that the wording could have been changed. Whereas, in Spanish, I could not say, "Nitrous's Post." I can only say, "the post of Nitrous," because Spanish doesn't have possessive nouns. The wording must be changed in some areas, and I was only saying that much. I don't believe that entire stories were lost. If you do, then again, it's not something we can argue. I can't say that I was there to prove what I'm saying. I can only say what I believe.

To my knowledge, Judaism is mostly founded on what I call the Old Testament. Now, I can't get into specifics because I'm pretty dumb concerning other religions (and even my own sometimes, lulz). All that in mind, this is where my opening statement comes in. I know it looks like a cop-out, and it is. I don't know the answer to this question, but now that I've heard it, I will purpose to find an answer. Please bare with me, as this is just as much learning for me as it is explaining.

Meh, I'm noticing that you speak along the lines of "determined destiny." That is, our world views differ. I don't know the smart-folk term, but there is a world view that suggests we are merely living out our pre-designated fates. Now, you've not directly stated this; so, this is an assumption. To get to my point, our differing opinions in that area make this particular facet of the debate even more difficult for both of us. In my opinion, the person has the mind of his own to choose (what I feel to be) the right path at any time. I couldn't tell you the purpose of hell. I don't know if it's for disobediance or what have you. I don't want my statements to get so clouded that it appears as if I'm dodging the answer, but I really don't know what you're particularly attacking here (long, hot day of work?). I've probably put enough material in this post for you to disect, anyways. Have fun, my friend.

 

God is not within everything. He knows everything. You may be taking something out of context here. God is our savior. Not our condemner. God knows everything. But that doesn't mean God is the devil.

 

You've given me a bonanza.

Right, that still doesn't explain the life expectancy from Classical Greece or Ancient Rome being half what ours is today even with all of our processed meat. The "Barbarians" had an even lower life expectancy. It seems their is a direct correlation between technology and life span.

Explain your hyperbaric theory. It does not fall in line with what science predicts for how the atmosphere should behave.

I can sympathize with your last point. It just seems the bible would elaborate on this at least a tiny bit.

Answer below. (Didn't want you to think I was avoiding your points).

You're still missing my point. Follow this line of reasoning really quick.

One year before my birth god knows exactly what my life will be. He has his little timeline displayed in front of him:

BIRTH---A---B---C---D---DEATH---HELL

I'm born (hooray!). I go through my life feeling that I'm making my own decisions. Along the way I fulfill A-D. So my personal timeline reads:

BIRTH---A---B---C---D---DEATH---HELL

So say god predicts that I'm going to eat ice cream October 19, 2008. I end up eating the ice cream after a hefty decision making process where I debated the pro's and con's of ice cream and flaming hot cheetos. I leave the kitchen feeling fully content that I made my own decision, however, god already knew the decision I was going to make. I may have had the ability, in your terms, to make my own choice freely but the outcome was still the same.

Let's make a logical leap of faith. I'm born, god knows I'm going to hell. Gives me free will to pick as I choose, but god already knows the outcome. So whether god forced me to go or gave me the freedom to go to hell on my own, he knew where I was going and I did not. Had I some forewarning, maybe a sign of some sort would have mattered not. He made me to die. So long as he predicted I would go to hell that will come true. No amount of signs, help, or forewarning will change that.

Blasphemy is the only unforgivable sin. Unforgivable means, unforgivable. I'm going to hell, no matter what. If not the bible is wrong.

No, I don't think entire stories are lost. However, I don't think all contradictions should be regarded as "lost in translation." It seems that things that don't compute are just messed up data. Not actually what was intended. Which is just strange to me.

Judaism's Torah is the first 5 books of the old testament. Their scripture are the books written by Moses.

I am a determinist, to my great sadness. Cause and effect. It's basically an assumption due to the way our brain is constructed and how it works. It carries more validity than free-will. In fact, I have yet to find a good reason to believe that free will does in fact exist (don't mistake randomness!).

 

Rawr....what a bag of goodies. I won't lie. This is challenging stuff, but I'm enjoying it.

Absolutely. God doesn't always work with spiritual hoo-doos. Technology is as much a tool for Him as anything. I don't disagree that more technology has increased our life span. In those times, I believe that disease was rampant. Hygiene wasn't exactly at the top of the list. Perhaps, I'm missing the contradiction in our opinions because I'm not seeing what I posted (only what you posted), but I don't feel that we disagree (....here, lulz).

BTW!!!! THEIR- Plural possessive spelling of the homophone, "there." I'VE FINALLY PROVEN YOU WRONG.....anywho...

I've heard the hyberbaric comparison. Basically, (assuming you believe in some form of The Flood) there was a layer of water in the earth's atmosphere before The Flood. Its exact dimentions, I couldn't specify. However, it gave protection from some harmful UV rays, and generally provided for a cleaner environment. This is simply my theory. I'd like to hear yours.

A lot of times, I think the Bible leaves out answers for a reason. Perhaps, there's some things that we're not fit to know. People usually see this as fault. I've always seen it as God's way of providing a faith-based people. That is, I don't believe in God because He's given me all the answers to all the questions; I believe in Him because of trust. Otherwise, wouldn't it take a bit of the true loyalty out of it, if people followed Christ because they knew for fact the answer to every query of their heart?

Alrighty. I really, really don't want to come off as arrogant or sarcastic (honestly, I mean that=] ), but I still don't see how His knowledge of your decision affects your decision. The outcome is what God knows it will be, not what God decides it will be. I really can't go any further than that on this particular debate. If you don't see it the way I do, then we simply disagree. Now, your next point....a little tougher, lulz.

I lul'd at the bold part.

Alright, I'm following and agreeing with you until...

"Had I some forewarning,"

I believe that you've had forewarning. Again, this isn't me pushing my faith. I'm simply stating that, even in this very debate, we've discussed matters of heaven, hell, and reasons/methods of going to both. At birth, you did not know where you would go. However, now that you have a grasp on right and wrong, you've been made aware of the consequences. The bottom line falls on your decision. God has created many people knowing that they would go to hell. If you want me to explain why or how, then you're definitely going to wind up with the wrong answer. I haven't the foggiest, but I do know that it's not His decision. You use the word, "prediction." While this word applies more to the weather man than an all-knowing God, I'll take it. God's foreknowledge of your decision doesn't dictate the decision itself. He is not deciding for you. Again, I could just be very bad at explaining, but I know I'm not crazy, ha.


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The last time I talked this word over with someone, I was quite young. I've always viewed blasphemy as denial of God. I don't believe blasphemy is a one-time event. It's a constant. That is, if you are choosing not to believe in God at X years of life and you die- hell. Say, for instance, Gary denies even the thought of God's existence until the age of 30. If he becomes a Christian at the age of 31, and no longer denies God, then he is no longer in the act of blasphemy. Maybe, hopefully...that makes a tiny bit of sense.

No no. You're right, "lost in translation" should not be my excuse every time. You'll also note that I included my ignorance. Sometimes, I feel that the Bible is using the same word in different ways. Even more often, it's best to read the preceding 4 chapters and proceeding 4 chapters. A verse, on its own, could quite simply contradict another, if the reader doesn't fully understand the context. This issue is famous for the creation of cults. Mike Mikeson reads...

...and he feels that God's telling us that it's okay to fornicate and rape the earth's resources as we please. When, in fact, God is saying something entirely different because of the context.

Cool. Now, I know =]

Quite complex, my friend. You're certainly testing my intelligence, lulz. There's another bunch of bolocks for you to have fun with.

 

i don't have time to read your debates but god doesn't exist, so god can't be the devil. or maybe he can idk.

-read the god delusion by richard dawkins
-watch zeitgeist (google it)
-youtube search: why god won't heal amputees
-use common sense

 

Hi, friend. I've not seen you around the Debate section previously. I've not been here long; so, perhaps it's my own fault, but it's a fact nonetheless. I respectfully request that you make your point with a gentlemanly attitude. I've fallen in love with ForgeHub because of people like those who frequent the Debate section- ones that have core-defining disagreements with me, but are still able to casually talk about our point of view. I've learned much about myself and others in this section. I'd love for the same to apply to you.

 

if that was directed at me (Which i'm assuming it was), i didn't mean to come off like a huge asshole, i'm just saying...

 

Nor am I intending such of myself. Also, I highly encourage you to "just say." However, your belief's disagreement with my own sparks my learning train. I want to know the foundational reasons of your belief. Were you swayed to this belief by a superior? Have you truly sought out an answer concerning religion, or have you chosen to steer entirely clear of it and live your life as if you've never heard the word?

Now, Nitrous and I have been co-re-rebuttling (yes, I made it up) for a long, long time. Collectively, we've written a book. However, I feel it's safe to say that we disagree in many forms of the word. Despite this, I've made a friend. As I said, I've learned about how someone else views me and even how I view myself. It's a beautiful thing...*tears*

 

to answer the first part, a long period of time and a variety of factors. i questioned it for a long time then my disbelief was solidified when i came across the aforementioned pieces of evidence. god simply does not exist, it's not a matter of belief to me but an inherent fact. i'll be glad to refute any argument you have in favor of god.

 

Alrighty, this'll be my last post of the evening,by the way. I worked 12 hot hours on a roof today, and it's lookin' like that or more for tomorrow, lulz.

To retort, I am in the defending position. As you are the one claiming things of my beliefs, it is your place to "attack." A debate commonly follows this precept of attack and defend. It's nonsensical and an incongruity for me to attack the attacks. Make sense? I say this only to let you know that you are claiming falsehood (or nonexistence, rather) and thus, it is your place to show supporting evidence to that end.

 

Understandable, I have 8 hours of school everyday and 2 hours of cross country occaisionally followed by another 3 of work. My posts aren't going to be right back and forth, but they should be within a days time of your response.

So I mean I guess I'll start simple and if I have to make things complex then I will.

Simple question, what is your response to this (relatively short) video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3VAEYEG53w

I would type out everything the video says but thats pretty tedious and unnecessary.

 

You claimed it was processed food that caused the dramatic decrease in life span. To the contrary it seems to have increased it. Furthermore, I feel that the immense life spans are due to the deification of ancestors, common in Mesopotamian cultures, which would have undoubtedly influenced this work.

Blast!

Do you realize what kind of atmospheric pressure that would create? If and when this layer of water feel and caused the flood our survival of said flood would be irrelevant as the drop in pressure would give us a severe case of the bends and eventually make us explode.

UV rays would not be deterred by the water shield. If they were, then almost no light at all would reach the surface itself. In the oceans you can only go so deep on natural light. The same principle is in effect.

Cleaner environments do not derive from unfathomably large, floating reservoirs of water.

It is not a theory, it an uneducated, uncontemplated, and erroneous idea that holds no weight with anyone of sensible intellect (no offense). This "hyperbaric theory" has absolutely not merit and will be cursed to a watery fate.

I do not have a theory. Fortunately climatologists probably do and when I say probably I mean they do, for a fact, have a model. My "theory" for the climate would probably be rises in atmospheric gases that disrupt weather patterns and can cause phenomena that may or may not have the capacity to affect life. However, my "theory" is incredibly stark due to the fact that my main goal in life is genetics and evolutionary theory. Not climatology or paleoclimatology.

Think of the people it would save, though! If your ultimate goal, as a deity, was to save all the people you could and bring them to heaven to party for eternity - why not include germ theory or relativity in the bible. Something that would be complete babble talk to the ancients but incredibly powerful to the modern era! Millions of atheists would convert on the spot! God's great majesties would be expressed in one unified voice to the heavens.

Is it too much to ask for someone that loves me to at least show me some proof that they love me? Saying, "I love you" only proves you have the ability to say it, the action of loving or showing love is quite different. For someone who believes the sword is mightier than the pen you should be quite familiar with this concept.

I think I'll just drop this point. It's too convoluted to stay on track anyways. Plus, neither of us are benefiting from it.

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I would never imply you are crazy, only a victim of circumstance, a proof or an assumed evidence for determinism. It is of the utmost importance that Christians understand that preaching dogma is not forewarning. In the same way that a weather man shouldn't talk about kittens while he's supposed to give the 7 day forecast. How could we plan around the weather if all we knew were that kittens were awesome? How could I prepare for an eternity with god if all I knew was the dogmatic, hate speech of fundamentalists (you are not one of them)? How could I possibly allow myself to be lured into a cult that holds no mark with me whatsoever just because I fear torture? Would that be conditioned love? Forced love? Would it be love at all if my only motive was selfishness?

My question to you would be, if you allowed yourself to be exposed to all things scientific and watched atheistic videos on youtube 'debunking' the judeo-christian god would you be a good Christian for it? Is it blasphemy to question an idea without proof and whose only result was the damnation of man's critical thinking, morality, and soul?

If a man divorces his wife due to reasons other than adultrey and does not remarry that woman will he go to hell? He is still commiting the sin of divorce, though not actively in the brutality of it. If a gay man or woman marries their lover, a sin against god, and do not divorce, are they liable to the carry of that sin?

It doesn't seem fair does it? I know your answer, the first will recieve forgiveness while the second is damned. But why? Why the senseless hate? Don't two gay people, who love each other, deserve a better chance at heaven that two straight people who hate each other? Your god, no matter how omnipitent he claims, seems to be bogged down by desert scribblings written by deranged homophobes. The decendants of which are now bombing innocent civilians.

May god damn himself for the crimes that he has commited.

9,000+ denominations of Christianity in America alone. There seem to be a lot of descrepancies in the bible people like to interpret differently. But the main message everyone understands if that of Jesus. He came to deliver peace amongst the people. He told us to love our neighbor as ourself. Why is the one universally accepted truth of Christianity so commonly disregarded and the bombing of abortion clinics and the radical racisim towards homosexuals exibited? I sure hope that your actions and the actions of others aren't a testament to your god.

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Sorry for coming off harshly in advance.

As have I.

 

It is important to question faith rather than to follow it blindly, and for that I truly appreciate the existence of this thread.

 

Nice debate so far, from both sides. Nitrous and Dented have made truly excellent points.
But I feel like it's gotten a little stale, so I'd like to take this in a new direction if I may.

Okay, so we all know of the Holy Trinity correct? God = The Father, the Son, and The Holy Spirit. They are all one and the same. Somehow three seperate beings, are actually the same single entity - God. Makes no sense to a lot of people, but it's just something we're supposed to have faith in.

Anyway: God, The Father, told God, The Son (Jesus), to go to Earth and be sacrificed and take on ALL the sins of humanity. This is said to be neccessary, because God cannot co-exist with sin, and we are sinners. So in order to be saved and live in heaven with God, we need to put our sins on Jesus.

So I ask: If God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all the same one God... and God cannot live with sin...
How is it possible that all the sins of humanity are now with Jesus?

 

Or, at the very least, tell us why Jesus had to converse with god. Why couldn't he just beam the info into his head? Better yet, he should know it already, he's god!