Imagining your ban makes me happy. Except I won't be imagining it. I think that it means that God is part of the devil. Does that mean God is evil? No. In a way, God did and had to create the devil. After all, good is really only relative to evil, so without evil, there can be no good. Like others have said in this thread, people need the choice to choose good over evil. Also, you have to take everything you read in the bible metaphorically. Eve and Adam (representing children) messed up, whether it was their fault really or not, and were punished for it. But they learned from their mistakes, which is the lesson here.
Fables If you think that everything in the bible is a metaphor meant to teach positive moral values......I couldn't agree more. You can't have it both ways though. Either the bible is a literal record of human creation and history or it is a book of life lessons told though anecdotes about animals and humans. How can you say not to take the bible literally, but still take some things literally: Heaven, Hell, Creation, Jesus being the son of God, and even the existence of god. The Bible = Aesop's Fables I will agree that the bible is a good moral compass for people who don't own a copy of Aesop's Fables, but the day I start forming my opinion about what happens after I die based on stories of talking snakes and spontaneous rib to woman genesis please have me committed.
Can I see some form of basis behind that theory? Sure, it makes sense for it to be metaphorical, but I don't feel this to be one of those "this didn't really happen" cases. As per my debate with Nitrous::: I saw no form of questioning in your post. From this point on, if you so choose to continue, let's go question by question- point by point. When arguments progress into the multi-quoted posts that cover several different sub-arguments within the whole, all participants lose track of themselves. Personally, I'm sure that I've misquoted or misspoken because of this. So, if you concur, may we keep our posts concise and direct? (assuming this is cool with you, you're welcome to open up with the issue you see)
@Dented - On my first point you need to answer "if you give a suicidal man a gun are you responsible for the death?" in context with your arguement as per quoted above. On my second, I corrected you as saying god must know the future therefore all your actions are determined. Not freewill.
I'm not Nosey, but if a man is truly suicidal he will kill himself whether you give him that gun or not. : ) I'm not a Christian, but I have some knowledge of the Bible. God lets us decide what we are going to do. He knows what we are going to do, be it what he wants or not. Can you understand what I mean by that? He knows what we're going to do and he can control us, but he doesn't.
No lol, I would know if I were the devil. Don't negative rep him though, he didn't do anything inflammatory.
I believe that the fault lies within the suicidal man. I believe you're getting to the point that God knew what man would do, if man were given the option. Thus, Him giving man the option puts the blame on Him. Again, I THINK this is what you're getting at. God's choice to give us free will is the ultimate end to that question. The only way to prevent our downfall (that we know of) would've been to not allow Adam or Eve to eat of the tree (or, in any way, sin). I'll cut it off here, assuming that you've gotten my point by now. Keeping our bickering to two-pointed posts is fine with me. I just post long stuff to avoid the ability for what I say to be misinterpreted. It often gets by me anyways, though. Moving on. It is possible for Him to be knowledgeable of, but not make the decision Himself. In actuality, I make up my mind as to what I will do with my life. However, God knows the decisions I will make. He will act according to His promises (those found in the Bible) to direct me to the best life possible (which I feel to be in His will).
Exactaly. The idea is that people always have the choice to act in whichever way we please, its just that God knows his children so well that he knows how we will act. It'd be like if i knew exactly how you would act, you still have a choice, but I know how you will act. You have freewill, but I can see how you will act; I know, but I'm not controlling you so you have freewill.
Alright, but how can that be true? If God is without sin and the devil is pure evil, how can one and two be the same? Also, if God created everything, and foresees everything, then he created Lucifer knowing that he would have to eventually be cast out of Heaven. If cruelty does not exist and you create it, does the creation of cruelty make the creator cruel? and how can one be seen as cruel and be seen as one without sin at the same time? Which gets back to the original question, how can god be the devil and if he cannot, then how can he not be the devil? (especially since he created cruelty and evilness) Oh, and sorry I haven't replied yet... I didn't know this would pick up that much. that reminded me of this Futurama "So, do you know what I'm going to do before I do it?" "Yes" "But what if I do something different?" "Then I don't know that"
You're not getting the point I'm trying to make (in respect to the Adam and Eve arguement), so I will move on. Are sins passed down? Are the sins of my fathers passed to me? It is possible for Him to be knowledgeable of, but not make the decision Himself. In actuality, I make up my mind as to what I will do with my life. However, God knows the decisions I will make. He will act according to His promises (those found in the Bible) to direct me to the best life possible (which I feel to be in His will). [/quote] I think a conversation with god would play out like the futurama quote. We are going from point A to B. He just doesn't see if we get to point B. He sees every single step, every particle we move, and every impact we make. If we deviate from that path then he would not know it, making him not all knowing. From birth (or prelife if you believe in that) he knows exactly what we will do, and whether or not we will burn for all eternity. So why send someone to earth if they are just to die? Why do we insist we have freewill (if we did I certainly wouldn't have picked to be born, I'd have stayed in heaven)?
To answer your first question: No. The sins of your father or any ancestor are his own. You're not held responsible. Your big paragraph was comprised of mostly assumption. Fact- Neither of us can debate what God sees or doesn't see. My Bible says that He sees and knows all, but that's because I have faith. The line is drawn by you ultimately having faith. If you choose not to believe in the things that aren't directly in front of your eyes (things of spiritual caliber), then debating the supernatural is rather difficult. So, my point? Things like.... and ...can't really be debated. I can, however, debate logic. Moving on to your summarizing sentences... I don't believe in a pre-life. The Bible speaks nothing (to my knowledge) of what we were before existence on earth. However, your opening sentence is correct. As I said, He knows what decision we will make, but does not make it for us. To not allow us to live the life we choose would be denying our free will. Also, we don't choose to be born. We are thrown into existence, so to speak. From birth to death, I live how I choose, and that is what I concern myself with. If I existed in some other form before birth on earth, then I can't remember it. I see no point in dwelling on things that don't affect my eternity.
So why am I not in the garden of eden? Fact-We are debating the Judeo-Christian god, along the terms of the bible. Zeus was not all knowing, the Christian god is. No faith required. Whether I believe in his existence or not I believe in the story's existence. And that is what we are debating. So one more time. If you give a suicidal man a gun, knowing the full extent of his mental condition, are you responsible for his death? Either directly or indirectly? So...god has me in his little planner to burn in hell for eternity for my lack of faith. Why, if he is so vigorously wanting praise, did he send someone that would not praise him? On top of that, why knowing the full extent of what will happen to me, did he send me to earth just to die and burn in hell. Earth is just a daycare for us. We either believe in god while we're here or don't. When we die is what ultimately matters. It is when he will judge us and send us to the appropriate locations. God, being an all loving god, would hate to see me go to hell. So before he sent me to earth, why did he not crack open the planner, check out my life, and decide not to send me because I would suffer in the afterlife? It is unnecessary suffering. And no you don't live how you choose, you live how you were planned to choose. -- Also I'd like to bring up a new point about God being love. You can view this in full by clicking the spoiler button below. Before reading, ask yourself, is God love? Then ask yourself again after reading. Spoiler 1 Corinthians 13:4-7: Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in truth; bears all things, endures all things. We are left with a few basic concepts. Love is patient, kind, not proved, not jealous, unbragging, not arrogant, and does not act unbecomingly etc. 1 Corinthians 13:8: Love never fails. 1 John 4:8: ...God is love. John makes the claim that God is in fact love. Therefore God must exude these biblical qualities. We can't go into all of the definitions of love, but since it is proclaimed God is love then he must fit all of the definitions. --- Love =/= Jealous Exodus 34:14: "(for you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God), He fails to meet Paul's first criterion for love. What he have thus far are as follows: God is love, Love is not jealous, God is a jealous god. --- Love =/= Provoked Deut 9:7: "Remember! Do not forget how you provoked the Lord your God to wrath in the wilderness From the day that you departed from the land of Egypt until you came to this place you have been rebellious against the Lord." Judges 2:12: "...They provoked the Lord to anger." Unfortunatley, God is provoked as cited in Deut 9:7 and Judges 2:12. Even God himself says he was provoked in 1 Kings 14:9. 1 Kings 14:9: You have provoked me to anger and thus thrust me behind your back. God is love, Love is not provoked, God is provoked. --- So, is God love?
1. You are not in the Garden of Eden because you were born into a sinful world. It is not the individual sins of your ancestors that you suffer, but rather, the introduction of sin into the world you live by Adam/Eve. They did not change you; they changed the world. 2. No, in my opinion, you are not responsible. However, upon searching for a verse to support my belief, I found this. I'm posting it to show that I'm capable of being wrong. Yes, I know, take a picture. Ezekiel 3:18 When I say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. This, obviously, is a different situation than a suicidal man. In contrast, though, it does show that we (Christians) are responsible for decisions we make (IE: giving a suicidal man a gun). Upon this revelation, I can only say that I'm ignorant concerning the answer to your question; not entirely ignorant, but not having enough knowledge to make a correct statement. I'll take some time to look into this as I have done with everything else, and I'll be sure to finish this out. 3. He sent someone who would not praise Him because of the Free Will that I've previously mentioned. For whatever reason, you and I were put into existence. We were both given choices. We were both shown the gospel (I'm saying you have because you obviously know of Jesus/God/Story of Salvation). Secondly, He knows (as you put it) "the full of extent of what will happen to you." You do not. I do not. To say that you will die and burn in hell is assumption. Paul wrote close to half of the entire New Testament, and he killed Christians (as Saul) before accepting Christ. There is no one beyond saving. However, assuming a case that would die and go to hell, I could not give a sound answer. His decisions are beyond me. I'm no scholar or Theologian. I'm merely a Christian who defends his faith. Do not count my ignorance against the religion as a whole. You cannot debate that. I see a world in which, if I so choose, I can key someone's car or help an old lady across the street. I can sing, work, move, and feel to my own liking. When I decide to take a sip of Coke each morning, I don't feel any overbearing pressure to make that decision. I choose. You can provide no logical or factual evidence behind that statement. Concerning Your Spoiler:::: The Bible is known as "inspired." I'm sure you've heard this term. It means that, while God Himself did not step down from Heaven and scribe the 66 Books, He did give the Words to disciples/followers. The harmony of these books, while considering the difference in their respective cultures, is what I feel to be justifying evidence to its truth. There is no contradiction. How do I back up the previous statement? Were I able to read Hebrew or understand the Aramaic that Jesus (likely) spoke, I could give to you the truly inspired version of the Bible. What we have today is a translation. The Words, while still descended of the original text, can lose proper wording. Hence the coined phrase, "Lost in Translation." I say that only to clarify that the version you used is not one of the 4 widely accepted: King James Version, New King James Version, New International Version, and the New American Standard. I checked these, and yours does not match. So, I can do one of two things for you: + I can leave the argument as it stands, which is that you gave a version of the Bible that I consider faulty. - I can further research those verses in a version I trust, and report back with a more-informed summary.
Omnipresent means that at entity is everywhere at once. It does necessitate that it is made up of everything. Just because God is everywhere, does not mean he is made up of Satan, or evil at all for that matter. And Dented, I believe the point that Nitrous is trying to make is that God gave us the will to do what we want, and the means to do it. To keep with the metaphor, he is saying that if a suicidal man owns a gun, is it not His fault? To that point, I believe that, eventually, those who were damned will eventually see the light, and that God gave the suicidal man free will (in order to have him fully appreciate His love, but, unfortunately, allowing him to kill himself as well), and, having sinned, God must punish that suicidal man (like any loving parent would do, but also dislike doing), and, eventually, causing the suicidal man to see the light.
I understood both of those points. In your explanation of his question (to me), you said his exact words in reverse order. Just saying, thank you, but direct your retorts to the attacker(s), not the person who's defending the same thing as you.
Every rule is meant to be broken. Many things can be entirely true with one exception. No reason for this to be an exception. I love speaking in riddles. ;] Edit: Oops, forgot to disable my sig.
And so if... God was there from the very beginning He invented men and women, Then He also invented wanking, Then He said wanking was sinning. So if I'm feeling randy I'm not allowed to hand-shandy, But having sex with my family, That is just ****ing great. It's all there in Ezekial 8, Just before He opens up His big pearly gate, And says that it's a sin To take it up the date, Even if it's great, Even with your mate.