Debate is God the Devil?

Depending on what Religion you are in it's different. The religion I'm in says nothing what you just said.

Some religions believe that, but I don't think there is one that believes God is the devil.

The Devil is a treacherous person causing wreck and havok. God is a divine person that grants peacefulness. He does everything for the greater good, and sometimes that means sacrificing.

The devil is not a being. A being is a living and breathing substance, that requires certain standards to live. Satan can't die, and he does not need anything to live. He's a spirit; a soul without a physical body.

 

I believe that you misunderstand what's being said. Consider the following:::

There are six things which the Lord hates, Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, And hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, And one who spreads strife among brothers .(Prov 6.16ff)


God is omnipresent, omniscient, and all-powerful. None of these entail that he "is" (as a state of existence) everything. He's aware of everything. The Bible is quite clear in stating that God cannot associate with evil.

For that reason, we were (before Jesus's sacrifice) unable to achieve atonement with Him. Jesus's sacrifice wasn't for lulz. He had to die in order for us (sinners- separated and unable to associate with God) to achieve atonement.

The same applies to Satan. He was cast from Heaven for his evil (many varying forms of evil. I used that as a blanket term, but the Bible gets more specific). Now, God cannot "be" Satan or associate with Satan because of his evil.




Summary: You've heard God described as "Holy," I presume? Do you truly know what this means? It means no part of Him can be with evil. He cannot tolerate evil. Some argue that the worst part of Hell will be ultimate and eternal separation from God. That's a beyond-Biblical argument that I don't partake in, but you see where I'm going, hopefully. If this post doesn't sum up your question enough, I'll be back to see your response and discuss further.

 

So god isn't omnipresent?

 

I clearly stated that He was. To say that He cannot tolerate sin doesn't contradict Him being everywhere.

Anyone with half a brain can understand that the Bible isn't saying that God is between your toes and in your closet. It's saying that He sees all. He's "everywhere and nowhere."

)))That last "everywhere and nowhere" part is something I've added. Don't take it out of context, please.(((
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If he can't tolerate it, why not get rid of it? Also, can I hide in the closet from god?

 

1. He doesn't "get rid of it" because that's not His will. We're what the Bible calls "Free Moral Agents." That means, God will never force us to follow Him.

Take the Garden of Eden, for example. God placed Adam and Eve in a life of perfection, and they chose another way.


2. No. I'm not sure if you mean this literally or metaphorically, but the same answers applies either way. His omniscience entails that He knows all. This includes what you're literally and metaphorically doing "behind closed doors."

 

1. Adam and Eve did nothing to get thrown out of Eden.

2. You said he wasn't in my closet. So now that he is, does that mean he is in Satan?

 

Please, cite where you derived from Scripture (or even elsewhere) that Adam and Eve did nothing to get thrown out of the Garden of Eden.


The second part of your post makes little sense. I never said He wasn't in your closet. You're diverting the topic from an easily understood point to a pitiful twist of my words. I said that the Bible isn't literally stating that God is present or not present in your closet.


If you're twisting my words to tear down my argument, you're failing. If you're twisting my words to make me question my own statements, you're failing.

One thing seems obvious, you're not debating for the true purpose of debate. It seems an awful lot like you saw the word "God" or "Christian" and started looking for loopholes. I'm up for a fruitful debate, but I won't waste my time on something as trivial as the latter part of your post.

 

God isn't everything. He sees everything and knows all, blah blah. Basically he's like those cameras on that reality show Big Brother. He can see everything.

He is. Seeing everything is different from actually being everything.

Divine intervention is why he doesn't get rid of it. If he controls us to rid us of sin and love us, we are not loving him by choice. That isn't the way it works.

You can't hide from him in your closet.

Adam and Eve didn't do anything? So what was the whole thing with the apple?

He is, in a sense, in your closet, but he is also everywhere else in the universe. He is everywhere.

 

1. Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Which means after eating the apple they were made aware of their misdeed. Before hand they didn't have a moral code to dictate what they should or shouldn't do. God basically said, "Don't eat of the tree of the garden." So Adam and Eve, being obedient, did not. Until this squirmy little bastard known as the snake came crawling along and begins talking to Eve. Yes, apparently snakes could talk before the fall (perfect diction as well). He tempts Eve into eating the apple and then after eating the apple gives it to Adam who didn't know what the hell was going on. God gets pissed that they decided to cover themselves up and casts them out of the garden (which then vanishes forcing all the animals to leave the garden).

Why would god, in all his infinite wisdom, make a tree that would damn us to such squalor and on top of that make a snake that blabs. It's just terrible planning on his part. Why didn't he stop the snake, why didn't he warn Eve of the snake (he warned her of the tree after all), why did he make a tree that nothing should ever eat of. Was it his private stash?

Excluding that, Adam didn't know that the apple he ate was of the wrong tree. Why was he cast out? What kind of a punishment is forcing someone to toil in the fields? Have we defied god by making our modern conveniences. Our only toil now is a cubicle, which is much easier than naming every single animal god made (like Adam had to...) or picking fruit. God tempted us, not Satan. It has always been god.

I digress.

2. No I'm not trying to agitate you. You said god wasn't everywhere, and used the closet example. You then went on to say he was in your closet because he is technically everywhere and nowhere. Which is why he is and isn't in Satan at the same time. You would think that someone as destructive as Satan would have an eye kept on him. Especially if you can see everything no problem.

 

Divine intervention. If God didn't give them a chance to sin it wouldn't be love. We would have no choice, and that's not what God wants. He chooses to let us choose, and humans chose to sin. Starting with Eve.

God gave us the option and told us not to do it. Satan tempted us. We went against God's word. How is telling us not to do something tempting us? It just shows our sinning nature.

 

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die."

Actually, He informed them that eating of the tree would bring about their death. That seems just cause not to eat out of that tree, if you ask me.

Refer to my post about our place as "Free Moral Agents." The absence of choice brings about the absence of true love and devotion.

For disobeying.

1. He should've had common sense not to listen to Eve without questioning her.

2. He should've had the common sense to verify what he was eating, even were deceptive intentions of Eve not present.

I never thought I'd have to quote myself...

I made no such claim. I gave my interpretation of "omnipresent."

The fact: "The Bible isn't saying X" does not contradict the fact that X can be true.

Genesis 1:1 doesn't say that Mary gave birth to Jesus, but that doesn't mean Mary didn't give birth to Jesus. It simply means that the particular clause in question isn't saying X.

 

Then the snake says, "Ye shall not surely die." Now the bible doesn't give us in depth discussion of how close god and eve were to one another, but it does tell us she listened to a talking snake with much more readiness than god.

Having said that, it doesn't really matter. She came into a world without the knowledge of what death was or is. She had never experienced it, through the death of a loved one or any animal at all.

Can god see the future, does god have a plan for you and everything. If you answered yes, you are a determinist (like me!). If you answered no, then god is not all knowing.

1. Tree of the knowledge of good and evil! You are equating your experiences to his and hers. They have never had someone lie to them before or trick them. Especially each other. There was no reason not to.

2. Do you verify everything you eat? Do you ask the lunch ladies at school how much veal or steroid ridden lettuce your eating? He's not constantly on the alert paranoid of every morsel he eats.

 

1. You're exactly right. The snake (Satan) tells them that they will not die. The snake plays the role of the tempter. The reasons behind sin don't justify the sin.

One who loves his mother dearly might kill another who mistreats his mother. While loving your mother is all well and good, you still committed a murder- sin. Subsequently, both Adam and Eve were deceived. God gifted them, just as He did us, with the ability to think. He gave them a direct command. At this point and time, there were no debates as to who created them. It was quite evident that God created them and everything in the Garden.

While neither, as you said, had previously experience deceit, they did witness two contradicting statements before their "fall." One was from their Creator, and the other was from a snake. Take your pick.

God knows the outcome. He knows what you will choose, but does not make the choice for you. So, yes, God has a determined plan for everything.

That said, His plan is not always concurrent with our own. So, he may plan for me to minister to aboriginals in North Africa, but I (in little faith) choose to stay here. His plan to use me to minister to those people has now been changed. Now, remember, His plan may be changed, but His will may not. His goal for those people to be ministered to will occur, with or without me. However, my own disobedience hurts me, not Him. You see?

Check THIS STORY OUT. God plans for a man to speak His message, but the man doesn't. God's will is done through a donkey. God's plan for Balaam to speak was changed because of Balaam's choice, but God's will was still done. I think I've summarized that point.





I covered your final questions (in my opinion) in my opening statements. The issue of their previous knowledge is irrelevant. They had a direct command from a reliable source, and chose that of a snake above their Creator.

 

Wow, Nitrous. I have not the slightest clue how you have been this successful in a debate that has never been won before- as soon as you hear the word 'god' or 'belief', it usually marks the end of debating logically and the beginning of debating against conspiracy theorists.

 

We're not debating the existence of God or the reliability of Christianity. He questioned facts of the Bible. Thus, facts of the Bible are being used as points. He's countering those points with thoughts, and I'm retorting with more Biblical evidence.

So, this debate is under the pretense that the debaters already believe God exists. Otherwise, they would not be debating things such as His will/His plan for Adam and Eve. What you mentioned calls for denial of what this debate calls for acceptance of (sorry for the dangling preposition; I'm getting tired.).

 

after reading this entire post i have come to the conclusion that God is a mysterious god. He will always puzzle us with his wisdom. I think god knows what you doing at all times, but he chooses not to know what you will do. Hence the whole we have free will thing, so yes god does know when your jacking off in your closet(jk.) And going back to the tree thing, god gave eve free will to disobey him or obey him. And she chose to disobey god punished her. And i dont know if im right but I think Adam was warned about the apples too, and he ate one after Eve gave it to him. So they were both banished.

 

It's at this point you must ask yourself. If you give a suicidal man a gun, with full knowledge of their condition, are you responsible for the death? Alternatively, your at the Grand Canyon and you want to kill Joe. Joe is standing precariously close to the edge and Sarah is behind him. You push Sarah who falls into Joe who falls off the edge. When the police come they take you to jail. Sarah is a victim of circumstance and did not to kill Joe. It was someone who had complete control over her (for that instant) that caused the murder.

God has a plan, and that plan can not be changed by human will. God would have to not know the future for the plan to be fluid. In his plan he knows you will kill Joe, but he doesn't prevent it. God did not directly instill the hate into you, the circumstance throughout your life instilled it. Which he provided in his plan. Why did god plan for Joe to be so close to the edge, why did god plan the vacations around each other. For one reason, he works in mysterious ways. Bullshit.

There is no subsection clause to the ten commandments. Murder is murder. In the movie V for Vendetta V murders several people who have caused atrocities throughout the course of their life to change the government for the greater good. Whether or not the outcome is positive the ends don't always justify the means. Especially when talking about an omnipotent, incapable of sinning god.

Regardless of plan or will. He can see the future. If he sees in 10 minutes you will drink a glass of water and you don't he was wrong. If he sees ten years from now and you and the aboriginals are partying it up - it has to happen or he was wrong. You can't make prediction that turns out to be incorrect when your an ALL KNOWING god.

I'm actually not Christian and have no faith in a god. It's just all in how I'm directing the debate.

This has been really fun and thought provoking. I look forward to continuing tomorrow. I'm off though. All the best.

 

One thing people don't really realize is that Adam and Eve didn't physically eat an apple from a tree. It was a metaphor, similar to just about the entire book of Revelation. They did, however, fall to temptation and disobey God, bringing about their own mortality.