Now on the other side of PETA. Animal testing for cures that could save million of people, possibly. I don't know the conditions in testing labs and such, but they can't be good. But on the other side, people's lives could be saved by the medications tested on animals stances? A higher up on PETA uses insulin, but says it's okay for her to use it. Is that right? PETA Vice President using insulin Some things against PETA I believe PETA does mostly good. But not all good. I love meat, and I freely admit it. I don't like the conditions that the animals have to go through.
There's also some very good vegetarian chili out there. You can usually find it in the refrigerated produce section of your grocery store. Mrs. Squid is a vegetarian and we get it a lot. Beans and other legumes are the best source of fiber and protein in lieu of meat. You'll fart more, but the world needs a bit more comedy, no? Yes, we call it McDonalds (sorry, couldn't resist). I fear that organizations like PETA are a necessary evil. They are a wildly radical group, but because of it they have been able to get some positive things done as far as the treatment of animals. It's obvious that we as humans can't do much big business-wise that remotely resembles ethical treatment of anything, so apparently we need one to attempt to balance another. I apologize for getting off topic kind of, but it's tough to not talk about vegetarianism without mentioning PETA. I'll probably always be a meat eater, but my eyes have long been opened to how large companies treat the food we're supposed to eat. I take as many (rather expensive, comparatively) steps as I can to eat meat that is raised as healthy and steroid-free as possible.
OK, rant: I think that ''scaring people into not eating meat" is kind of a loaded term but does raise some interesting points. I personally cannot morally resolve eating something without being comfortable with its production, and I don't claim ignorance as a defence. This is a personal moral and I do not criticise others for their own beliefs or try to shift mine on to them. I have been lucky, my family are far from rich but are comfortable enough to be able to choose what we buy, and a balanced diet in many areas of the developed world with a low income often needs meat products. I can't put the facts out of mind when eating meat (which I do), you can. Objectively, in many ways, you are a much luckier person. But I think it is unfair to criticise Predicide for posting a link, its a free choice to follow it or not and blaming someone else for individual curiosity is senseless. What I wanted to say about your statement was that you do raise an interesting point, these videos and organisations do sometimes give out flagrant moral judgement on people who eat meat, besides just giving the facts. I think knowing the facts is important but these sources are sometimes harshly subject to a narrow view of the subject. Not all meat is produced in the ways shown. I live in England and do find it difficult to find fully locally produced meat (by locally I mean produced entirely on small scale farms, without the use of the larger slaughter chains etc, not local to me). Sometimes it is a little more expensive but sometimes it is cheaper. --I'd like to ask you Predicide, what is your moral standpoint on meat produced in this way? There is still obviously killing involved, and is this the basic root of your decision? (not to try and reduce your opinion or anything, just for discussion sake) 3)This doesn't seem to take into account the extra food we would theoretically have by replacing our meat output with vegetable/fruit etc. We would have the same amount of food as we do now (more food if the efficiency claims are accurate) and so, if the same amount of food was lost in transport then we would be left with the same final amount of food. 4) I think the logistics for transporting sufficient food around the world is already there. In my local supermarket the cheapest fruits and vegetables are the ones that have been flown in from really far away, south america generally (bear in mind that I'm in the UK). Alot of this food is coming from developed nations, and we could transport it to the nations that don't have farming capabilities instead of to us. The problem is that our food prices would go up and the people who own these transport networks are not the charitable sort. This leads on to your next point.. 5)What you said is very true. the economic impact would be intolerable to too many people, most importantly governments, to make this possible. Vast economic sectors would collapse and massive amounts of money would have to be put into agricultural conversion and expansion projects before any return was seen, either in food output or money terms. 6) This is a pretty interesting point I hadn't even thought of, nothing to debate about it really. This leads to my last question, or series of questions, Predicide. What is the moral basis and/or aim of your decision to go vegan? Is it, as above, the basic fact that animals are dying for food. Or is it the fact that so much of the meat produced is done so in an unnecessarily cruel way? Or is it something else? Do you do it to make a difference or do you do it as a personal point of principle regardless of the "insignificance of one persons impact etc."? I do not wish to criticise any of the above opinions, I am just wondering which best describes your reasons and, if none of them, how would you describe them? I'd also like to congratulate you on a great post. An interesting point of debate put forward in a fair way, well cited and well informed. Thanks for not pushing your own opinions on others or judging, I have a couple of vegetarian friends who insult me everytime they see me eating meat, its fine to have an opinion but don't push it on others. Thank you for this. That said, I'm always ready to engage in a real discussion and always ready to be convinced.
Yeah, you're right. I didn't take that into account. We would most likely have all the people from the livestock industry taking work in the agricultural sect.
HATE HIPPIES. Almost all are total degenerate douchebags that don't give a damn about anything except getting their buzz. They may be peaceful and all of that, which is fine, but they do NOTHING about it. For example, Woodstock. It was intended to be a protest? A celebration of peace? All that was done there was drinking, drug abuse, and unprotected sex. Zero action was taken on what they stand against. Way to win one for the good guys hippies.. Edit: Woops, double-post..and off-topic.
I'm going to censor myself and not say anything, but this is totally out of line and severly off topic. Please keep this type of thing to yourself.
I think people should think carefully before labelling all vegetarians or vegans "hippies". I personally have no problem with hippies as I define them, but hippies and vegetarians are not always the same thing. I know alot of vegetarians and some of them, whilst they'd never hurt an animal, would have no problem tearing my face off for calling them hippies (some of my friends are kinda tetchy though...) Just remember, don't let preformed prejudice about people you define as "hippies" affect your opinion of vegetarianism.
lol... ImI METAL ImI, I pretty much expected to get a response like that out of someone. Well, cheers brother. I still like hippies. PegasiDelta, wow thaks, that was a great post. I'll try to do my best to answer that.... I did site a variety of arguments on the first page, but in truth, most of them don't mean much to me. Who really cares if humans are built as omnivores or herbivores? We have obviously become omnivores in our development. The other topic about food efficiency... I have no hopes or delusions that humans will become vegetarians in mass and all the butchers in the world will become farmers. I really don't think I said anything like that. The one thing that my decision is based on is the way meat is manufactured. If I'm trying to make a statement, it's only as far as a boycott is a statement. I decided that it's something I will not participate in. This, like so many other things, comes down to the whole corporate greed problem (like squidhands touched on). The great profit motive. These facilities are run to maximize profit. If profit can be increased by 1 penny per animal and it means the animal's torment is doubled, they will do it. I've heard it said before that the profit motive is a necessary evil, and it works to make our society run. **** that. I drew the line when I saw the deep, deep ocean of misery the animal exploitation industry has *unnecessarily* become. Like I said, I don't intend to convert other people. It really just makes me feel better to dilute myself into believing I'm not a part of it. The reason I made this thread in the first place was only to state my position and make available some information that I don't think most people know about.
I have alot of respect for you then. I think its a good thing to stand and not participate in things you disagree with. I do respect people who think they can make a difference, and without them the world would be a much worse place as sometimes they really can make a difference. But I really respect someone who, even appreciating that they will probably never make an actual dent in the problem, stands up for their morals nevertheless. Its self sacrifice (if you call not eating meat a sacrifice, I certainly do) for principle, which is admirable. For example, I am a smoker, but I really hate seeing crushed cigarette ends lying all over the street, and it pisses me off even more in parks and public gardens. I always carry my own ashtray when out and about and put my ends in there. I know I'm in a minority and will never make any real difference, other smokers will continue to throw their ends away, but I can't stand to be one of them. I'm not comparing littering with cruelty to animals, obviously its small fry in moral comparison, but its just an example. Sorry if I implied that the world vegetarian conversion idea was your own opinion, I saw it somewhere in the thread and it kinda got worked into my argument, I didn't mean to direct that at you as all your arguments were alot better reasoned than that, but I should've been clearer. I may not agree with you on all points, but I have alot of respect for your morals and depth of reasoning. You clearly think about your opinions, and also stand by them very strongly without pushing them on others, this deserves respect.
Oh that one comment I made wasn't directed at you. That's kind of been a recurring theme in this thread. And I remembered you also asked about alternative meat producers, and I forgot to comment on that. Yeah, I would have no problem eating meat that came from humane sources, such as 'free range'. However, I still wouldn't probably do that. The thing is... I getting so used to my diet as it is. Plus, I'm really don't trust myself... you know, you start to make exceptions, then it becomes easier to make more and more.
"Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances of survival for life on earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet." Albert Einstein, physicist, Nobel Prize 1921 Source The final copy of my paper is on my flash drive, but I uploaded what I had. (Excuse the grammar errors, this is I believe the fourth from final version) A couple of things before you read it: Tom Billy is a USDA employee who inspects meat facility's worldwide, he is a front force in the Animal Rights movement, and is also vegetarian, I had the pleasure of having a phone interview with him. I wrote so much about ecoli because as some of you know, I got ecoli from spinach (when i was vegan) and had a little more interest in it. To download just enter the three letter code near the top right corner of the main box. Download link: MEGAUPLOAD - The leading online storage and file delivery service
That's more than OK. Its posts and attitudes like yours which show how good this debate forum could be. Arguments must be reasoned and easy to follow, but most important, must accept others' rights to their views. I hope the debate forum continues in this manner.
i have a few things to say #1 i probably wont come back to this thread so speaking to me in a message is the only way to reply me, if you feel it necessary to prove a point(which im open to). #2 God put animals on earth so that we could eat them. we dont enjoy killing them. theyre food. if your not utalizing the source then thats you, not utalizing the God provided source. #3 you can eat what you want to eat, im not forcing you, just maybe letting you think about another side of the subject. maybe you have. try not to put animals to high in your concerns, youre much much better than they are. i hope i havnt affended anyone for speaking their beliefs. PS-what pegasi delta said.
I didn't mean to be so extreme with that "world supported by agriculture" argument, I just wanted to present my side to the debate on that certain topic. As for myself, I am definitely against the torture that the animals are put through. Hell, I might even protest if it's convienient, but I don't think I'll stop eating meat. It's an honorable path you've chosen, Predicide, and I admire your sympathy for the horribly mistreated animals. Looking forward to TGIF with you tonight, btw.