Before you post a reply to this forum, you must read and follow all of the rules. They can be found here: http://www.forgehub.com/forum/debates/15313-rules.html In addition to those rules, I ask that everyone replies with his/her signatures disabled. With that said, here it is: Ask just about anyone. They'll all tell you they're in favor of equal rights for homosexuals. Just name the situation, and ask. They'll all say, yes, gays should have the same rights in housing, jobs, public accommodations, and should have equal access to government benefits, equal protection of the law, etc... Then you get to gay marriage and that's when all this talk of equality stops dead cold. The stereotype has it that gays are promiscuous, unable to form lasting relationships, and the relationships that do form are shallow and uncommitted. Gays do have such relationships. But they are a small minority, and exist primarily among the very young. Many of the reasons offered for opposing gay marriage are based on the assumption that gays have a choice in who they can feel attracted to, and the reality is quite different. Many people actually believe that gays could simply choose to be heterosexual if they wished. But the reality is that very few do have a choice -- any more than very few heterosexuals could choose which sex to find themselves attracted to. Not only that but it has been proven to be wrong. It is now scientific fact that you are either born gay or born straight. Quote: It seems many people continue to believe the propaganda from right-wing religious organizations that homosexuality is about nothing but sex, considering it to be merely a sexual perversion. The reality is that homosexuality is multidimensional, and is much more about love and affection than it is about sex. And this is what gay relationships are based on -- mutual attraction, love and affection. Being gay is much more profound than simply a sexual relationship; being gay is part of that person's core identity, and goes right to the very center of his/her being. This is something that few heterosexuals can understand unless they are part of a minority themselves."Marriage is an institution between one man and one woman." Well, that's the most often heard argument. Yet it is easily the weakest. Who says what marriage is and by whom it is to be defined? The married? The marriable? It seems to me that justice demands that if the straight community cannot show a compelling reason to deny the institution of marriage to gay people, it shouldn't be denied. And such simple, nebulous declarations, with no real moral argument behind them, are hardly compelling reasons. They're really more like an expression of prejudice than any kind of a real argument. The concept of not denying people their rights unless you can show a compelling reason to deny them is the very basis of human rights. "Same-sex couples aren't the optimum environment in which to raise children." That's an interesting one, in light of who society does allow to get married and bring children into their marriage. Check it out: murderers, convicted felons of all sorts, even known child molesters are all allowed to freely marry and procreate, and do so every day, with hardly a second thought, much less a protest, by these same critics. So if children are truly the priority here, why is this allowed? The fact is that many gay couples raise children. Many scientific studies have shown that the outcomes of the children raised in the homes of gay and ******* couples are just as good as those of straight couples. The differences have been shown again and again to be insignificant. Psychologists tell us that what makes the difference is the love and commitment of the parents, not their gender. The studies are very clear about that. And gay people are as capable of loving children as fully as anyone else. So why is this a serious civil rights issue?When gay people say that this is a civil rights issue, we are referring to matters of civil justice, which often can be quite serious - and can have life-damaging, even life-threatening consequences. One of these is the fact that in most countries, we cannot make medical decisions for our partners in an emergency. Instead, the hospitals are usually forced by law to go to the families who may have been estranged from us for decades, who are often hostile to us, and can and frequently do, totally ignore our wishes regarding the treatment of our partners. If a hostile family wishes to exclude us from the hospital room, and they may legally do so. It is even not uncommon for hostile families to make decisions based on their hostility -- with results consciously intended to be as inimical to the interests of the patient as possible! Is this fair? When a same sex partner dies, the living partner doesn't need to have the grief of loss compounded by having to prove that he or she is authorised to make the funeral arrangements. In a married relationship validity of the relationship can be easily demonstrated if necessary through production of the marriage certificate. Upon death, in many cases, even very carefully drawn wills and durable powers of attorney have proven to not be enough if a family wishes to challenge a will, overturn a custody decision, or exclude us from a funeral or deny us the right to visit a partner's hospital bed or grave. As survivors, estranged families can, in nearly all areas, even seize a real estate property that a gay couple may have been buying together for many years, quickly sell it at the largest possible loss, and stick the surviving partner with all the remaining mortgage obligations on a property that partner no longer owns, leaving him out on the street, penniless. There are hundreds of examples of this, even in many cases where the gay couple had been extremely careful to do everything right under current law, in a determined effort to protect their rights. Is this fair? If our partners are arrested, we can be compelled to testify against them or provide evidence against them, which legally married couples are not forced to do. In court cases, a partner's testimony can be simply ruled irrelevant as hearsay by a hostile judge, having no more weight in law than the testimony of a complete stranger. If a partner is jailed or imprisoned, visitation rights by the partner can, in most cases, can be denied on the whim of a hostile family and the cooperation of a homophobic judge, unrestrained by any law or precedent. Conjugal visits, a well-established right of heterosexual married couples in some settings, are simply not available to gay couples. Is this fair? These are all civil rights issues that have nothing whatsoever to do with the religious origins of marriage; they are matters that have become enshrined in laws by legislation or court precedent over the years in many ways that exclude us from the rights that legally married couples enjoy and even consider their constitutional right. This is why we say it is very much a serious civil rights issue; it has nothing to do with who performs the ceremony, whether it is performed in a church or courthouse or the local country club, or whether an announcement about it is accepted for publication in the local newspaper. In Australia, same sex couples, still suffer under the weight of stigma and prejudice. We are still often subject to verbal and physical assaults. Homosexuals still face significantly higher suicide rates than their heterosexual counterparts. These attitudes of prejudice are reinforced – and given State sanction - by discriminatory laws. It has been argued that preventing same sex couples from marrying was "a matter of survival of the species" -quote Ex PM John Howard. Clearly, the ability or desire to have children is not a prerequisite to marriage. Opposite sex couples can get married whether or not they are able or willing to procreate; same sex couples are prohibited from marrying, whether or not they are raising children. “Companionate” marriages between elderly heterosexuals past the age of child-bearing are celebrated and affirmed in our society, not banned under law. When people say that including us would "fundamentally" change the definition of marriage, what underlies this statement is the belief that the love between a same sex couple is "fundamentally" different from the love between an opposite sex couple. Expanding marriage to include us wouldn't change what marriage is all about any more than allowing women to practice medicine changed what being a doctor meant. It merely expands the class of people to whom marriage is open. Traditional marriage will not be weakened by permitting same sex couples to marry. People don’t turn away from marriage because others who are eligible to marry do not meet their particular moral standards. It seems unlikely that any opposite sex couple would turn away from marriage just because same sex couples can marry. And all of this is just the beginning, unfortunately for most people this is a non-issue and you will simply skim past this and go on with your day. Making jokes in the forum, posting comments about a funny picture, playing Halo, and perhaps, so you should? I mean you came here for that reason, but do you really think this is fair at all? Do you honestly believe, if after reading all of this, that any of these issues being pushed aside and not cared about is fair at all? These are basic human rights people! Take a moment to actually think about this, I beg you. This issue is so important to millions of people, don't just ignore that. Stand up for what you believe in, do you believe in equal human rights? .sources; Australian Marriage Equality Gay Marriage: The Arguments and the Motives BBC NEWS | Health | Scans see 'gay brain differences' Compiled by: Reynbow
I totally agree with you project, totally. I have multiple gay friend, either girl or boy, ad still talk to me about these issues. It truly is asad fact that we as a people face everyday. Although there is a large majorityof people that dont believe in same sx marriages, and that is why there isnt really an end in the near future.
No offence but I'm too lazy to read all of it. Anyways.. Gay marriage should definately be allowed, I have no idea how a law allowing it hasn't been passed like 10 years ago. Marriage is about love between two souls, what gender those souls are makes no difference. And marriage isn't really about kids, its about making the bond/commitment with your partner that you will spend the rest of your life together happily ever after. Although post marriage, children are kind of expected.. I dont really see a huge amount of difference between having kids and adoption. Although if sexuality Is determined by genes, a surrogate mother could increase chances of homosexuality.. I dont see how sexuality can be influenced very much by up bringing by two males or two females
I don't think that anyone will argue otherwise with the LONG post in the OP. I think all arguments against it have been covered. Just a small story though to show the gay bashing people: Well today I was at kings island (I live in cincy) and I was about to board the Son of the Beast (BA coaster) and my friend and I (were 15) look at this kid and say he looks like my younger cousin. The kid hangs up his phone (he was talking to his mom-lolz) and goes WHAT! What are you looking at?! We explained that we said he looks like my cousin. The kid screams that we are a bunch of ***** fags and that we should go in the "rear" of the roller coaster-and more gibberish about being gay. I replied that I was actually with my girl friend the day before at kings island. I just don't know why he thought that being gay was such a devastating response. Mind you, I had about 5 inches on the kid and my friend about 8. Where exactly did this kid pick all this up? edit: sorry forgot about my sig
That's a very unbiased topic. Well I'll copy some things I have on topic over for now. First of all, just so that you know, any type of thing like this is referred to as a "mental disease." You can possibly be born as a guy who thinks he's a girl, and therefore "be born gay," as many of you are saying. That is all that this scientist has proven. However, you are still not "forced" to be gay. If you are willing to go to a psychiatrist and listen to them, you can no longer be gay. This means it's very different then things such as race, where you are born a certain race and must remain this way your entire life, race therefore, is in no way a choice. Most gay people that have got counseling say they're not going to suddenly start being straight, but they're no longer attracted to guys. You just need to find that balance in your head and you'll be okay. There really is no way that you could have anything going on in your mind you couldn't change, since your thoughts and feelings will always determine it, and you can change this, and therefore become straight or become gay, as you choose. The thing is, you could still make yourself feel gay if you really tried to, gay people can do the same thing. By saying it's okay to be gay, we're discouraging them from figuring out how to be straight. You can't tell me that for no reason humans naturally all thought they should be straight before. If you look into history you don't really here about gay people, because it was never an okay thing to do before, so no one did it. It's the same thing as killing people, everyone has naturally known that it is the wrong thing to do. Some people still have there feelings that they need to kill someone to satisfy themselves. Maybe someone that has really upset them, or someone who they just feel deserves to die. You can be born feeling the need to kill. It is however, still never okay to murder someone for any reason, and if it were to be legalized, it would make it harder to keep people from doing it. This is the same reasoning behind why gay marriages and things should not be legal either. Being gay is certaintly not as serious as being a serial killer, however it is the same idea. It is a way of living that is determined by feelings inside your head. You can feel attracted to killing someone in the same way you can feel attracted to a guy when your a guy yourself. In both cases, you are violating natural human laws, and therefore they are both very similar bad things to do. Killing is of course, simply much more severe. And again, none of know what it feels like to think you "need" to kill somebody, especially if you are born feeling that you "need" to. Regardless of the situation, you still need to find a way to deal with these feelings and do what you know is right. Many people fail at this, and that's why we have law enforcement and things to stop killers and put them in jail. The problem with gays, is that it's now legal, which is encouraging many people to do it. For Now, I'm going to cite wikipedia, if you want you can look up all their sources there, but there's a lot of them: Mental Disorders Serial Killer "Homosexuality"
I support same-sex marriage. If you want to, you should be able to. I don't get why people find gay people so... alien.
Gravedigger, you are not some psychiatrist, so shut up about your stupid claims that we can change our sexual orientation. You are just some sad 17yr-old who thinks his opinions are always right. You can't fight hard evidence you thick headed fool. You seem to be very ignorant, because of the fact that you blatantly dismiss any evidence sited.
What If i don't want to be strait...? What if I don't want to change to conform to what some of society thinks is the right way...? What if I am happy being what I am, being who I am...? I hate the term "mental disorder"..... It implies that there is something wrong with me, and there isn't. I am just different from the majority of society. Homosexuality isn't some mental disorder that can be treated... If I'm not mistaken, they tried it in the 50's and 60's.... It was unsuccessful.... I like me just the way I am.
i have no problem with gays, but marriage is a sacred ceremony between a man and a women. I think gays should have all other rights, but not marriage. I have a couple of gay friends and they are great. i agree with gravedigger, and chipsinabox its all true, so be repectful of others posts.
The fact that same sex marriages aren't allowed is bull who cares if you want to marry the same gender does it make a difference? in fact this is a good thing it will take some poor kids out of orphanages who are probably made fun of and feel they have no place in this world. I say go ahead if homosexual people want to marry so be it if you don't support this than think of that poor kid in a orphanage missing parents and crying himself to sleep every night if this doesn't just make you the slightest bit depressed you have issues.
Actually some leading researches believe that homosexuality is caused by... Well stress in pregnant women. Stress releases adrenaline which suppresses testosterone in the body. Many believe this is the cause of homosexuality in males. If a woman is extensively stressed while pregnant testosterone production levels are supressed and reduced which effects the development of the farrow seen in the middle of the male brain and the bridge between the two hemispheres remains more in tack as seen in females when compared to a straight male. A good example of this is seen in children born during times of war due to the women being stressed that their men would be killed over seas. This is a nice theory and all, but what it lacks is an explanation as to what causes homosexuality in women.
It also doesn't explain how it could be treated after the fact. Also, lets try to stay on the topic of marriage.
Alright, just to let you know, I typed up a whole post that took me about an hour... then I realized I wasn't logged in and forgehub ate my post... so I'm going to make this short and sweet. First of all, you make some steep claims in this post that aren't supported by your lackluster sources. Your first false claim is that homosexuality is a disease and one that can be cured. HealthyMinds.org - Gay, ******* and Bisexual Issues See that site? That site is the site for the american psychiatric association. This is their page dealing with sexual orientation. On this page they say several things, things like homosexuality is not a disease, no studies have "cured" homosexuality, etc... here's a nice little quote from their site, if you don't want to visit. "There is no published scientific evidence supporting the efficacy of “reparative therapy” as a treatment to change one’s sexual orientation, nor is it included in the APA’s Task Force Report, Treatments of Psychiatric Disorders. More importantly, altering sexual orientation is not an appropriate goal of psychiatric treatment." Okay, I'm going to address this in two ways, first, assuming it is a choice, second assuming it isn't. Assuming homosexuality is a choice, that one can freely become gay or straight as they choose, so what? What's wrong with being gay? I mean, it's not hurting anyone, is it? http://www.apa.org/topics/sorientation.html Also, according to the american psychological association (not to be confused with the american psychiatric association), it's healthy psychological behavior to embrace the sexuality you feel comfortable with. It's not healthy to try and change your sexuality. Assuming homosexuality isn't a choice: Firstly, I'd like you to try and become gay for a second, stare at a picture of a ***** and try real hard... have you done that? If so, ha... I made you look at a *****... if not, you have no personal experience in this area... even if you do, personal experience isn't a good arguing ground because it makes us rely on your word. I'd like to see a study that has shown someone being able to change their sexuality... oh, wait, that's right... there isn't a study like that... says not only the american psychiatric association, but also the american psychological association... Also, logically, if homosexuality is a choice, why would someone continue to choose to be gay even though they're treated by many people as less-than-human, even if they may be beaten or cursed just because they're homosexual... why would someone logically choose that? Nope... and seriously, what's the big problem with being gay? Who's it hurting? Aha... do some research on a claim before you make it: Homosexuality in ancient Greece - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Free Essay Homosexuality During the Renaissance Homosexuality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (from the site you sourced) I bet you didn't know that in ancient greece, homosexuality was celebrated and supported as a form of population control. It was also used as payment between older men and younger men for apprenticeships... Now here's where your point goes from uninformed to offensive. You compare homosexuality to killing people. Now, let me be the first to point out that killing someone isn't the same as loving someone of the same sex. I don't know how to more clearly state my point. Homosexuality isn't hurting anyone, in fact, it just supports love... murder is, well, ending the life of another person. Do you realize how offensive this claim is yet? Now, I'm just going to point this out again, ending the life of another person is not the same as loving a member of the same sex. I'm not even going to address this point if you try and defend it because that really will show me how ignorant you are to how offensive this claim is. I'm ending this with an address to the actual point of this thread, homosexual marriage. The debate comes down to this: Should any two individuals receive the same rights as anyother two individuals? Yes. Homosexual marriages will not make every straight man suddenly turn gay. It isn't supporting a psychological disorder. Homosexuality isn't hurting anyone. The only thing allowing homosexual marriages would hurt is the pride of a certain religious individuals. And really, if the pride of a few is what is keeping any two adult individuals from receiving the same rights as any other two adult individuals, is that fair? Tell me, is it fair?
I was working on a post for this earlier, but lightning doesn't like me. quintessentially Haruki hit the nail on the head, drove it through the piece of wood, got another nail, and nailed the original nail into place.
Exactly, you don't want to change. But you could if you wanted to. That's why it's a choice. You may not be at all attracted to females and that's fine. But you don't need to get married then. Instead of being gay, you should go and try to find what your purpose is supposed to be in life. Although you claim to be born thinking you were a woman, your actually a man, and you need to figure out a way to deal with this, and a gay marriage is not an appropriate answer. That is why I used an example of a serial killer, it is easier for people to see what they do is wrong, and that is why they, like you, need to learn to control their feelings. In the case of someone being born a killer, a more appropriate answer would be to join the army.
I believe that gays should have marrage rights. I have many gay friends and know many gay people, and I am a huge supporter of gay rights. I have the human equality bumper sticker, and have gone to the Chicago pride parade before to support my friends, so yes, gay marriage should be allowed
Wanting to have sexual relations with another person of the same sex is deemed as unacceptable in a straight community. And considering most of the population is straight, your different from the rest and may be considered a freak by some.
i dont mind gays, i dont really know any in person but most of the ones that i have met i really dont like them. its just the way they act. they are men acting like a woman or a woman acting like a man its not a natural thing. but i will say that i dont mind them, i just dont like it when they go around saying look at me im gay. so im against same sex marriage.
I see what you mean JAY. I dont like the stereotypical gay either. But I'm not against same sex marraige, if they want to get married, I say let them. The world can be very restricted and closed minded sometimes.