NGA has me re-evaluating MY OWN behavior after that deep ness. Zang. Even though I hate your gamer tag/forum name, you touched my soul.
I wanted to respond to this more because being misunderstood is something that actually bothers me. I think there is a best designer in this community. I think the best level designer in the world exists in this community. I think there are things about level design that are important for every designer to be conscious of. But more importantly, I do not think any one individual has the authority to define those things and/or hold every map to an objective standard or a perfect ideal. Each map is its own entity with values assigned to various facets of the design depending on the designer's goal. If there is a universal hierarchy, it would lead to stagnation because design would only move in one direction. For example, if every map needed to have convoluted pathing to be "interesting", suddenly every map looks like a mess of ramps and ledges and the map pool would be homogeneous. Holding that principle - or any other principle - to any sort of objective standard would discourage creative solutions to problems. Another example is the aversion to symmetric maps. I personally like unique symmetric maps and would love to see more, yet everyone has given up on designing them because there is some arbitrary belief that "symmetric maps are boring" or "symmetric maps inherently play poorly". How about we look at those "problems" and find solutions to them instead of rule them out of "the golden standard". This ties into the saying: there are no rules, which is frankly the position I prefer to take. People should build what they like and not strive for some mystical objective standard. There is no perfect song, perfect movie, perfect dish or perfect book. Yes, I can tell you what I think is better than other because it's impossible to avoid hierarchy; and I will always articulate my reasoning based on the things I value. Because all that matters is the things that are demonstrably proven to do XYZ and the value the individual assigns to them. In other words, it actually is subjective, and that's perfectly fine. Of course there are bad maps where experimental ideas fail or the designer misunderstands basic things. However, throwing around opinions masquerading as fact to attack other people who are hiding behind their own opinions (i.e. "copping out") is putting coal in the engine that fuels this never-ending cycle, and personally i'm done with it. I believe it reflects poorly on me as a creative person and it betrays the way I actually feel, which is people should be encouraged to develop themselves creatively and not compare themselves to anyone or anything else. The last thing you'll see me do is write a thesis on why spiraling geometry is objectively better than any other kind of geometry, because I don't want to look at the map page and see a bunch of people trying to copy me or some romanticized ideal. That's how we ended up with Midship clones in H2A instead of actual interesting symmetric maps - because Midship was held as the ideal and nobody wanted to innovate.
With all this talk of hierarchy of best designers (which personally annoys me a little bit cuz I'm not a fan of drama ). It's pretty straightforward to me. You evaluate a designer by their work, finished and WIP's. Different types of work can be evaluated by different types of criteria but that doesn't make those evaluation's subjective. Art can be judged objectively and subjectively. Objective evaluation is what can be measured, what phenomena we see based off testing and observation and area based off what goals of the project are. Subjective evaluation is just how it makes you feel. What emotional reaction it gives you. A lot of people tend to fall into groups with this. For instance, a blinking red light naturally will make most peolle feal uneasy. A yellow and red sign is more like to make someone hungry than a blue one etc... So with this in mind I do believe you could spend some time and gather up some evidence to produce a hierarchy of some of the top designers in forge right now. Based off my gut initial thoughts the two forgers (that I know) I've seen that produce consistently great work that caters to their intended audiences so far are Salty and Multi. (2v2 - Multi. BTB - Salty ). If I spent some time doing research I could make a bullet proof argument to prove it. But ain't nobody got time for that. That's not to say that top designers can't be dethroned though. Produce some higher quality unique work and maybe you (hypothetical forger) can beat them
But how do you judge/decide if they've done it "more than anyone else". Sure there's some things everyone can agree on but there's not enough to create a proper system with which to judge the "best" level designer. If there was you and Multi would've made it by now. Apart from that I don't disagree and don't claim to so I don't know why you're so annoyed. I'm just saying that yes, there is a "best" but it's not really possible to say who. Not easily anyway. I will give another analogy, this time Olympic gymnastics. The winner of whatever event it may be is considered the best. But there's so many people basically at the same level and it's incredibly hard to distinguish. There will always be someone who disagrees with the results even in a major competition because a sport like gymnastics can be subjective. But they do their best to remove subjectivity (multiple judges, clear criteria) and we get an objective winner. Perhaps a similar sort of thing could be done with level design to find the best but I just feel their may be more to consider than with gymnastics. Perhaps I'm wrong though. I actually do really want someone to try. Edit: goat probably got what I'm trying to say across better
I’m working on a response, it is short. In the meantime These are nice tiles @MULLERTJE ! Are they for commercial use only?
I like when a designer explains why they did something, whether they are good at it or not. It could be complete bullshit out the ass and I would still respect them for articulating their thought process and being receptive to feedback. Hell, I might even learn something. But making vain statements and walking back is DOG. If anyone doubts my artistic skill, feel free to throw shade. I'll only be butthurt if it's false because remakes rumors are stupid and don't deserve any attention.
"But how do you judge/decide if they've done it "more than anyone else". Sure there's some things everyone can agree on but there's notenough to create a proper system with which to judge the "best" level designer. If there was you and Multi would've made it by now." I don't "make" or establish anything, I just discover truths when I create and play maps. These truths reveal themselves as self evident the longer any given person indulges themselves in the area of design. It's why you can randomly meet another designer and have a conservation and agree on random ideas or principles that aren't established anywhere on the internet. They're metatruth, and that's pretty much my stance. Since this whole conversation is winding to a close I might as well just give you my true opinion on level design. I don't believe people actually have different preferences. I don't believe that we, as designers, aren't "different" rather than more or less capable in the traditional sense of core design because I don't believe different values are even true. When people say "well I just enjoy a different style of play" I don't think they actually do. I think they THINK they do but deep in their psyche their subconscious is telling them the same thing that all of our's are. We are all, 98% alike in our preferences and that fact is hidden through mediocrity in design, perhaps lack of experience, stubbornness in some situations, confirmation bias in others, and much of the time just blatant unintelligence. And this extends past level design is really just true for all forms of entertainment and value in a humans life. So when someone tells me "what's wrong with Lockout? I LIKE trying to hold sniper tower." my answer is, no you don't. You might think you do, hell you might even think you love it, but you actually hate it. Your brain craves something more, something with integrity that gives you actual fulfillment through decision making and mechanical victories. And it's my belief that the longer people design and come to understand design the closer they get to this viewpoint, likewise people brand new to forging generally start off the furthest away in the sense that they like ANYTHING. Anything stupid, cheesy, but it never lasts because it's against their true desires. It's why very similar principles and behaviors reveal themselves among many well designed maps.
Hahaha hey you've checked them out! What do mean commercial? We make 20 colors and ship anywhere Homes, fireplaces, kitchens, bathrooms, coffeebars, restaurants, sneakerstores, you name it.
So now you're just gonna be ignorant and tell people what they think... Honestly though, I do agree with you to an extent and I think I've made that clear. People can agree on a lot of things about level design even if not at first. I just don't think it's quite enough to decide on a "best" and as goat says even if we could easily decide on a "best" (I mean, I guess it is possible with some thinking) it's not healthy for people's creativity. All in all though I think this is one of the most productive discussions we've had recently on this site so thanks.
Oooh you may have just made a sale... Yeah I had to pick up something at the Apple store and I looked out the window and *paf* I remembered Anyway still working on that response
Lol that's the usual response I get - people get really defensive when I try and tell them what they think. Rightfully so tbh but that doesn't change anything. I find this truth to be self evident in all aspects of life as well, in music, in health, in relationships, in life styles. There are always people who claim a certain thing is enjoyable and preferable but it turns out to not be the case in the following weeks/months/years
The first bit was really a joke lol. But I would move your number down from 98%. As I said, I only agree to an extent.
Yeah it's a great discussion but at the and of the day I know more about casual sex than map design. It's a good read, I will reread later and likes will be distributed accordingly. But I have an idea for a map though so that's something.