Some more tirade: I actually prefer being wrong. It means that all the hard work was done by someone else
The only alternative argument for morality (outside of the existence of God) is an evolutionary one. That man evolved over time to be hard coded with these guidelines for the good of the species. It's a decent argument, and there are many holes, but there's one big hole that I can't get past. If the concept of morality only exists as a way for our race to more effectively propagate, the it's not true morality in the sense of "right" and "wrong". It's just a set of instincts that doesn't have any implications. For example, I could go rape as many women as I could, and then they would (hopefully for the sake of this example) get pregnant. I would be fulfilling the purpose of evolutionary "morality" by reproducing rapidly and helping along the species, so what would be wrong with that? Seriously, I want someone to try and explain, if there is no God and morality is just an evolutionary tool, then what would be wrong with that? Why would the whole town be mad at you for raping everyone if morality only exists as a means by which we succeed a species? It doesn't add up. If we really are stars with shoes, how can anyone or any feeling tell us what we "should" do as long as it helps the population? Furthermore, there are certain individuals like Sam Harris who believe in neither God or evolutionary "morality", which is my estimation is a completely indefensible position that makes almost no sense. The stance could be summed up as "Neither God nor evolution dictates morality, it's just there. An uncaused cause." ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ In any case, I don't believe in God because of this argument, or any other worldly argument, and I don't think anyone will get saved because of an argument. In fact, they might even be put off by the idea of salvation if you bombard them with that cold "matter of fact" style of debate, and that's really what I'm trying to focus on in my life now. There has to be a change of heart before a change of mind can come. I was reminded by this truth in Matthew 13. Spoiler Matthew 13: 1-13 That day Jesus went out of the house and was sitting by the sea. And large crowds gathered to Him, so He got into a boat and sat down, and the whole crowd was standing on the beach. And He spoke many things to them in parables, saying, “Behold, the sower went out to sow; and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up. “Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil. “But when the sun had risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. “Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked them out. “And others fell on the good soil and *yielded a crop, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty. “He who has ears, let him hear.” And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. “For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. “Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. That's basically what I mean. Once the Knowledge of the Kingdom of God is given, so much more will be offered. However, if you deny this knowledge, even more will be taken away. It's impossible to argue for something that someone else cannot yet see or understand. It's not the way to help people.
Well if we all went around raping er'body, then the world would become overpopulated and we would either exhaust our resources or become cannibals, something our predecessors might not have considered
Well the world is already rapidly increasing in population, and the vast majority of that has nothing to do with rape, so that doesn't really make sense.
@ExtraSpicyMemes 2v2 got some more art done to it and an ATTEMPT at lighting https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/...brbirbeI_8ad0fc8c-b72c-4f01-9c2c-b9857fbff276
Didn't realize a lot of you guys were this smart and good at articulating an arguement. Doesn't seem like it during all the pointless debates we get in WAYWO. Some real interesting food for thought here.
He makes a lot of sense a lot of the time, but his argument against both evolutionary morality AND the the existence of God is absolute nonsense. He doesn't believe in God, or the soul. He doesn't believe we can look to instinct or evolution to derive our morality. And yet he still believes there is a moral "right" and that there are things we should and shouldn't do. I don't know what to make of that. Seriously, his stance can be summed up as "Neither evolutionary morality nor God exist, therefore morality exists." It gets more nonsensical every time I think about it.
Literally anything that I could ever do I could spin as morally justified in SOME way without any objective standard from a God. The simple claim "it makes me happy. And if it makes me happy it is right" becomes a sound claim. Rape makes me happy. Murder makes me happy. Who are you to tell me that I'm wrong? Why is your opinion worth more than mine. You have to accept that without an objective standard from a higher being anything flies. And whether or not you're okay with that logic...most people clearly don't act like that.
Personally at least, I probably most closely identify with agnosticism. I don't not believe there is a God, it just personally doesn't matter to me whether one exists or not. I was raised in a Christian household, both of my parents are still practicing Methodists, so I can't deny that my moral compass was influenced by Christian doctrine to a certain extent, that would be ignorant. But I've been openly non-practicing for years now, during some of the most formative years of my life (late high school, through college, and the couple years post graduation) and my moral compass has certainly changed since I was a younger teenager without any new or continued Christian influence. I've come to determine through my experiences with new people during that time what is "right and wrong" for myself. So I believe wholeheartedly that morality exists independent of religion. I think it is human instinct to act from a place of personal morality, because the vast majority if us feel empathy for others. We realize and it emotionally pains us when our actions negatively impact others. That realization is not learned solely through a place of worship or religious teachings. It can be built upon by specific moral codes that are embedded within religions, but morality itself is not inherently tied to a belief in a higher power. It is something that is understood from human connection and interaction.
My standard rests in being better than human. I can see what pieces of **** we can be, so I strive every day to further myself from this filthy existence we call humanity
Fun fact, all the projections for the world population show us reaching about 9 billion, and then decreasing. We'll be fine.
Morality to me is not understood as what feels good or right to me, it is how my actions affect others, and whether others as a collective feel what I have done is right or wrong. If you lived by yourself in a hole where none of your actions ever affected anyone but yourself, morality wouldn't matter to the point where it wouldn't even exist to you.
The topic of "religion" or spirituality used to make me physically uncomfortable. I would get pissed off when someone said I didn't say grace and I hated getting up early to go listen to music, empty my pockets, and sit somewhere for a few hours. And for a period of time, I refused to believe any of it, whether I was looking for a rational answer to explain everything away, or just not even interested in caring. But I found a church that I connected with, and something happened. I started to see myself in there with those people helping to make a difference. I wanted to go there, and for the last few months, I have diligently risen at the most unsightly hours to serve in the ministry in the production team. There are days I don't want to or don't feel like dealing with people, but then I go there and walk among believers and disciples, and I not only feel renewed, but at peace. Honestly though, it's not even about that Church. I was asked the other day if I "believed in church" and I said that it was just a building. Yes, there are many churches that don't preach clearly or will ask for money for 3 hours, but the world wants you to think you need to go to some building or talk to a priest or pay some televangelist to "earn God's favor" or communicate with or worship Him once a week. Or the classic "just be a good person and you'll go to heaven." But that's not what His word says. "Religion" wants you to earn your way into heaven with all these barriers and hoops like facing a certain direction to pray or dressing a certain way, but Jesus already paid that price. You already have a way into heaven through Him because you are your true, pure self through Him. The God I now know wants to have a relationship with us and show us who He created us to be, and the enemy will do all he can to make you forget that - to make you trust the world, or worst -yourself and your own human understanding. And who are we but tainted, corrupted beings, whose concept of morality shifts and evolves every few centuries before it always collapses on itself? Without salvation, we are lost. It is not the place of a Christian to pass judgement or condemnation on others. Rather, we must share the good news of what God has done in our lives and let anyone and everyone know that there is something greater - greater than any physical or mental disease, greater than any worldly label, greater than any lie the enemy has led us to believe, and greater than even the most comfortable and deep rooted sins - and He loves us, even in those things. And again, God is not just some statue you go to see at some shrine. His Holy Spirit wants to live inside of us, and when it does, it revitalizes you, empowers you, convicts you, and radiates from you. You know when it is inside of someone because they are simply on another level. I cannot "force my belief" on anyone because my encounter, experiences, and relationship with God is mine alone. I cannot make someone believe, just as no one in overwhelmingly Christian family could make me believe. All I know is, I tried the way of the world and every time I saw something higher than the world working behind the scenes, I chose to ignore it. Literally the minute I opened up to it, it was like a torrent of water that washed over me, restored me, and gave me life. And I have met so many people already - the teen moms who were told they would never amount to anything, the depressed addicts who were abandoned by "moral people", and those like me who stare into the abyss for so long that they fear the day it stops staring back. I still do not believe in religion, but now I see God every day. I guess that's my message for this Christmas.
Right, I agree. It was never my intention to make it sound like "morality is taught at religion school". I don't believe that at all. I believe that the truth is "written on the tablets of our hearts" as the Bible says, so that no man can say that he is ignorant. Whether or not you believe in God, it's my belief that you still have a true sense of what is right and wrong in your soul.