Mmmmm, not entirely but ok. I don’t have any skin in the game so this is as unbiased as can be. It sucks but the map should be held accountable for it. The “bug” didn’t just pop up between the map post and the dead line. Every factor in the map should be taken care of before the deadline regardless. That’s what everyone was yelling about when the other issue was brought up. It can’t go both ways. If they aren’t allowed to alter the maps in the other areas they shouldn’t be asked to fix cameras after the deadline. How was that not seen and fixed or removed before the deadline? That’s crazy to me.
It's entirely different. You're comparing issues that someone specifically designs into their maps out of ignorance or bad execution, to a never before seen or known bug/feature that exists within the game and how it assigns a pre-round to the time when the cameras are doing animated intros. (did you watch the video? It documents the phenomenon... I don't think it has ever been documented previously) How was it not caught in time? We had no reason to believe that adding cameras would break anything. Would you? Ask yourself that. What if you went to save your map for the fina ltim eand it just corrupted and you had to submit a different copy... would you want lenience for that? It's very similar actually. There still seems to be confusion about the current situation. The judges are open to changing spawns, so we are not asking them to do anything even on par with that. If the rule was "no changes whatsoever" then we wouldn't be asking anything... And, yes this bug did creep up at the time of submission, due to the reason stated above about not having any reason to believe anything could EVER break by adding cameras. Again, have you ever had that thought? Ever plan for it? No one would think that adding cameras would break anything. (until now...) But it's fine, I really don't want to argue about it. Judges, please just let us know what's going on and we will move forward form there.
The truth is that the exact time the ship flies in isn't relevant to the competitive integrity of the map. Which is why I said the broken script has no effect on my opinion on the map. If rockets were a proper choice of a power weapon at one point in the match then they will be at all points in the map, regardless of the exact time they fly in. It's the same map either way.
I mean can you really say that when a weapon spawns doesn’t matter? If it’s right off the bat and it’s closer to one player’s initial spawn, he starts with more momentum rather than having to work for it later on the match. Alternatively two power weapons coming up at the same time makes you have to choose between them rather than fight for one, then have the advantage when the next one comes up. And Halo has been about controlling power weapons for as long as I can remember. I know you all hate the concept of using pick ups as factors in your design choices nowadays though so, ya know, whatever. Not that I’m saying you should or should not fix it for the creators, for the record.
No need to argue. My point still stands. How was it you added the cameras in and never tested it after that? You didn’t start a single game after adding them? So you added them last minute and posted the submission? There’s no other way the bug crept in. I also apologize because I’ve been out of the loop awhile. I didn’t know the judges were allowed to mess with the spawns. I just remember the panic that ensued when they mentioned wanting to do that and people got bent out of shape and started polls and such protesting the idea.
the whole thing is an argument in the classical sense - I don't feel like arguing the point any more. Others have actually been "arguing" in the fighting sense... not you. @icyhotspartin did load it up at least once to see if everything was working before he hit "submit" and did not notice the problem or it wastn' there at that particular moment. I don't know how that happened, but it did.
thanks for the response. only thing I'd say is that the larger point (for me, not speaking for Icy) is how the map is perceived as a package while people are testing it - not necessarily that it will affect gameplay in a way that would change your overall impression of the map. It's kind of like you're going to the Art gallery to turn in your painting and a bird ****ing shits on it on the way in the door. We just want a tissue... Yes it will smudge the thing and that also looks bad - but we just don't want the **** there...
Sure, that's all true. However, If Multi and I played the map and noticed that once player just got rockets for free, we'd probably just say that it's shitty and move on. Past the initial engagement, the map would play out as it was meant to. This is a design contest, and power weapon pickups/timing is almost irrelevant if the judge knows what to look for. If the judge has to completely rely on how well the map plays in their testing, then pretty huge problems can come up like in the last competition for example. The judges didn't seem to catch the insanely camp-able and overpowered spots on orxgens or malta because that problem never came up in their limited testing. It's completely understandable, but looking back, it's pretty embarrassing to see maps with such huge problems win over maps that were at least as good and weren't broken. The only way to avoid mistakes like this to task judges who know what to look for and aren't relying on testing alone for their information. What if we went on a great map and placed 3 incineration cannons. Would the design of the map suddenly become subpar? Nope, but the player experience will, which is why that alone shouldn't be trusted.
Sure, and I understand that. But my job is to judge a map right now so I'm inclined to leave the scripting as is. Hopefully me saying that the broken scripting really doesn't affect my opinion of it will provide you some peace of mind. If you're concerned with the map's perception you can always "save as" in the menu's to create a copy without altering the modified date. But it would be in my best judgment to not touch the cameras - again, not that it matters. I don't hold things like that against designs. On the comment of changing spawns and weapons: We haven't even physically done as much because like always, it's hardly necessary. There's a map entered in the competition called Ginkaji where there's practically a H2 BR on every spawn with a very quick respawn; to the point where pistol engagements basically don't exist. They don't serve a purpose, they don't help the map. They just make the gunplay idiotic. So I said to Xandrith/no god, "Hey, let's just not pick up the H2 BR's and play without them". When we've been talking about altering the map that's essentially what we meant, I don't need to physically go in forge and delete **** when I can perfectly well see how capable the map is without doing as much. Same goes for spawns. Oh look, if you stand here you can force spawn a player in the corner. Now that we know that, let's move around as if that wasn't a factor and see how the map would have performed if that issue didn't exist. That doesn't mean I don't take everything into consideration, and that doesn't mean anyone is getting cheated out of any sort of placement. It's just experimenting for the sake of curiosity. Well, in this case the rockets still don't fly in off the start of the match so that's not an issue. But even if that were the case it's the same thing for every single asymmetric map that has ever been made in the history of video games. You will never, never have a fair initial rush on an assym, it's not possible. Even if the run times are identical the differences in map geometry will always give one player the upper hand. Which is why on every map I've made in this game I delay all powerups/power weapons 30sec/1min off the start so the initial rush isn't some dumbass encounter where someone slide boosts to the middle of the map to click an overshield (Read: Regret, Empire, Truth camo). It's enough time for the initial discrepancy to be overcome and provide an even fighting chance that doesn't devolve into power weapon rushing. I was hoping that some people would adopt this method in their 1v1 maps but it doesn't seem like anyone has. Bummer. "Alternatively two power weapons coming up at the same time makes you have to choose between them rather than fight for one, then have the advantage when the next one comes up." Sure in a hypothetical, and then what. One player will die inevitably and the other player now has 2 power weapons. Which is even worse in a 1v1 map because you have no outside support to focus fire. It's you, versus the dude with everything and that's it. So unless you sit there and burn your entire magazine before you die, one person WILL have both weapons. And even in that case - how could that possibly be a good thing? Is two players dueling with Halo 5's auto-aim cannons even a good encounter in the first place? I've said it once and I'll say it again: Weapons don't fix balance problems, they only create them. You can't ever fix any sort of imbalance with a weapon without risking making your imbalance twice as bad when the advantageous player controls everything. You can however, take a map that otherwise works and dilute encounters with shitty weapons. Shotguns in corners, snipers in open maps, etc. There's ways to build around it (OS spawn on Ridgeline is really good for trapping) but I haven't seen it done much in the competition. The only case where this wouldn't always be true is for powerups since you don't drop them when you die, they just get burned. But then you risk one player killing the other, and collecting both while he respawns, and not dropping anything in the off chance he dies. Also, not ideal. Again, exactly when the rockets fly in make no ounce of difference to me. It changes an encounter or two, maybe 3. But not what the map actually plays like at a fundamental level. "And Halo has been about controlling power weapons for as long as I can remember." I think it's worth asking if controlling weapons is even a principle worth following in level design, rather than decision making.
I want to make a core map but I have no idea what the theme should be. Somebody give me a concept or theme to start from pronto.
A car factory. An overgrown mansion. A Japanese garden. A Middle Eastern bazar. Eerie torture chambers. A misty fishing town. A tropical city square.
I'll chime in - I agree with all this, and I know you're doing a great job. My fear is that the other judges, who have not responded to the initial plea as far as I know, are not taking the same approach. I mean, it would be great if they did take your approach and attitude towards it, but just knowing what they think, how they are treating it is all I can ask for (@Soldat Du Christ @no god anywhere @Blaze pls respond). The Trello does now have a 'needs scripting edit' label, which I guess is something, but there's been no ~official~ response. As far as the shuttle coming in not affecting gameplay... HOOOOOOLD UP. The shuttle arriving at the very beginning of the match completely ruins that effect, and does actually change the way the map plays overall - on the copy with broken scripting, you're experiencing only half of what the map offers. Regardless of how sparse that may actually be, there is an entire experience that you're missing - the map without rockets, without the shuttle sitting in the corner, is, really, a completely different beast that relies a bit more on the choices and skill of the players involved. The whole thing is designed as a 'last-ditch' equalizer that is probably only going to spawn once or twice (maaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyybe 3 times) over the course of the match, and offers some incentive for a losing player to fight harder to gain an advantage near the end of the match. Really, it isn't meant to change the tides, it is meant to be something meaningful for the players to fight over, and which will only exaggerate any skill imbalance between the players (if it exists), or at least give the lesser-skilled player a fighting chance, if they are skilled enough to position themselves to get the thing in the first place - the announcement of the spawn makes it so that they have to think carefully about attempting to pick it up, or using it as bait to lure in the other player (goes for both sides). It takes luck out of it. So do I, and as far as I know, it was never officially cleaned up before submission, as the submission thread's main post still does not even mention Judges' Discretion re. spawns and weapons. Or scripting, as the Trello now shows is a possible modifier label. And again, the cams were tested before submission, and I cannot explain why it worked and then did not - I did not touch the map in forge after testing the final camera version in customs at about 11:42pm on Monday night. Blade Runner's vision of future (really current) Los Angeles