He's saying you are changing the way the map was intended to be played when it was submitted. It's a slippery slope and it's disappointing to see the potential issue hand waved away.
I personally don't care whether or not the judges make some changes to weapons and spawns. The important thing, which has already been touched on, is that there's equal treatment. Things can start to get sticky because this makes it easy for someone to register a complaint based upon the fact that: A)You didn't make adjustments on their map, B)You made the wrong adjustments on their map, or C)You made adjustments to their map, but shouldn't have because it played perfectly how it was. I fully realize that most of these complaints would be stupid and incorrect, but you do open yourself up to them when you open up the possibility of making changes to spawns and weapons. Touching on some other points that have been mentioned: - I totally disagree that weapon selection and placement have nothing to do with the design of a level. I have frequently designed sections of levels around the placement and function of a particular weapon. Weapons can be irrelevant to a design, but they aren't always irrelevant. I feel like if someone always designs every inch of their maps without any concern for what weapons will be on it or where they'll be placed, they're dumbing down their designs and missing out on great design possibilities. - I don't think that many people are actually holding back feedback or ideas because of this contest. But even if they are, it will ultimately (in the long term) help people grow, as they'll learn from each others designs and approaches. So it's pretty irrelevant, unless someone is purely forging for money instead of trying to grow their skills (and at that point I'd say they're probably just stupid).
That's cool. Some people wanted the judges to provide feedback on their maps. I think it will be an efficient use of resources for the contest to turn into a learning experience.
You're complicating this. I'll play the map. If I think it's good, then good. Move on. If I think it's bad because of the design, okay. Move on. If I think it's bad for technical reasons like spawning/weapon placement, I'll go in forge. Delete the weapons, try again. If it's still ****, okay. Move on. If it was better, then good. The design is fine, it just needed less stupid **** on it. Nothing wrong with thinking about weapons, or even building areas for them (see legion catwalk to OS). Something is wrong when someone relies on them for balancing however. ____________________ At some point people will have to realize that I'm not an idiot and know what to look for in a good design. No map is going to get screwed because it had shitty weapons just like no map is going to get screwed BECAUSE I altered the weapons on another map. I know how to look at designs and what to spot. If anyone here can read this and still think I have issues with bias or judging you have a few options. 1: Submit your map anonymously or have a friend do it . I don't care. 2: Don't have a stupid weapon set or broken spawns to begin with. There you go, problems solved. And again, I'll make a video afterwards where I'll talk about everything.
Okay, cool. I've already explained why I'm doing it. I've already explained how it won't hurt you if you're doing your job right. It's only there to help you. It's not going to muddy the end results. The best designers are still going to win the contest. And I've already said I can set up a poll, and if people REALLY don't want judges messing with maps in any way and just judging off of the raw experience we can do that. But I'm 100% certain that's not what anyone here really wants, and when results roll around you'll see that when the most properly fine tuned maps are all 4 square rooms. If you have any specific reason in mind as to how it could possibly compromise the integrity and cause us to choose shitty results, then say it. Don't just say "I don't like it." I'm not stupid. The best maps will get my vote in this contest.
I don't like the principle as far as a contest goes. I dont think maps should be amended in any fashion, but I mean we're already allowing an arbitrary grace period for adjusting performance, so why the **** not. I honestly don't know why I care this much about a contest i'm not entering based on a gametype I don't like in a game I can't stand, yet here I am.
For the record I was against the grace period it literally makes no sense to me. The judges aren't giving feedback, and we're "not allowing geometry changes only weapon/spawning" so what's the point. It's not like I have any way to prove someone didn't change their map during the grace period. I'm not saving every single map before and after then comparing them. If I wanted to give people time to make changes I would've just extended the deadline. I think it's dumb but whatever.
Yes, you said " Maybe people should have the ability to opt in for allowing those kinds of changes by the judges. I don't think it's possible to say that some weapon sets are objectively bad, and I'm sure people put the specific weapons sets on their map that they do because that set provides the experience the author is going for (even if you personally don't like it). If some guy puts 12 storm rifles on his map, I would assume there is a reason for it. Doesn't mean I have to like it. But a judge might call it objectively bad, simply because he or she missed the point. I think the judge deleting the weapon set is very similar to that judge saying "I don't like the experience this map provides, so I'm going to change it so one I enjoy more." And if they don't like the weapon set because they don't understand what the map is going for, it's essentially, "I don't understand what this map is supposed to be about, so I'm going to change it to something else." I would personally prefer that the judges be simply judges." And I responded with "I'll play the map. If I think it's good, then good. Move on. If I think it's bad because of the design, okay. Move on. If I think it's bad for technical reasons like spawning/weapon placement, I'll go in forge. Delete the weapons, try again. If it's still ****, okay. Move on. If it was better, then good. The design is fine, it just needed less stupid **** on it." I will give your vision a chance. If it sucks, then I'll play the map with default weapons. If it still sucks it's because your design blows and your vision blows. And let's drop this subjective argument again, Incineration canon is stupid on any 1v1 map I don't want to see anyone claiming I missed their grand vision because it's not true.
@Judges Well there has a rubric placed in the 1v1 contesr thread saying how we where going to be judge on. So I thought we as forgers where going to be judged based opon that rubric to determine a winner. And under the gameplay part of it, it has Balance, Spawns and Fun encounters. I haven't said weapon balance and spawns should effect the score of the design section of the scoring. So thats why I am advocating that we would be judge accordingly because the rules state we where suppose to make maps with that in mine. Now if you guys want to judge a different way, then by means do it your the judges but at least Make it known in the Contest thread and make sure it fair to everyone. @no god anywhere Your right i was hiding info but i made a post saying i felt bad about it so i told any one who summited a map and wanted my feedback to contact me in pm. I had 3 people do so and i gave my feedback.
@Sethiroth I wasnt even calling you out. I must of missed this or didnt realize it was you. Hakuna matata.
Like I said, if the community is that unanimous in wanting a raw judging experience, set up a poll and I'll honor the results. I just don't believe that's the best way to judge designs. This contest was set up really quickly, and that the announcement thread for the 1s contest was put up pretty preemptively without too much consultation. I'm just judging maps in the way that I think is the fairest way to judge level design. There are few things I'm not actually willing to discuss. The whole "well that's subjective" shtick is one of them. If you want to cry about how your map was cheated out because of subjectivity feel free, I don't give a ****. I'm just going to explain exactly why it was broken, and if need be I'll provide clips of me abusing any given map. Hell I'm going to live stream the whole thing. But if you're that confident that you can make that BFG equivalent nuke incineration cannon work on a 1v1 so that it feels fair, prove me wrong. I'm as unbias as you're ever going to get so I'll give everything a fair shake.
Put that in your sig if you want. I'll stand by that statement, I just want to see a good design. I don't care who it comes from.
The rubric was my suggestion and I assumed it was discussed with all 4 judges or the powers at be before it was used. If the judges are changing any of the rules at this point, it needs to be known. I'm really tired of seeing these things run so unprofessionally.