I'm glad we've generated a thoughtful discussion on this but have to admit that my previous comments were not entirely my own. My past two posts were simply reappropriated transcripts from MultiLockOn's video 'there are no rules' where he speaks about overall practices of level design. I know you're very close with him and may be inclined to accept his words over mine so I took the design principals he believed in and applied them to our current conversation of 2v2 maps. After reading through some of the responses, I realize this makes Multi look somewhat hypocritical so I apologize for using his words and framing them as my own. I'm not doing this to perpetuate tensions in our community, my overall message is a positive one. I'm simply advocating for us to keep an open mind and to challenge the confines of traditional stereotypes because in doing so we open up a new liminal location of pure possibility. Conforming to rigid principals unnecessarily limits people's creative freedom and sense of experimentation. Our community should challenge established preconceptions and break through paradigms of conventional wisdom in an attempt to explore the unknown. When you say an extermination map will never be able to be anything else, it doesn't leave any room for possibility. Whenever someone tells me something can't be done, it makes me want to embark on some experimentational journey to see if I can make it work. A key to creating a successful map is knowing where the threshold lies of what works and doesn't. Level design is an art but its also a science. Entertain the idea of pushing things in a direction your unfamiliar with. Challenge yourself but think responsibly. I'm not trying to continue a discussion if its a negative one, so depending on where things go from here, I've shared my thoughts enough on this topic for now. For those that wish to cross compare Multi's original transcript with my comments, you can view them here easily. Spoiler: First Post 1. Map design is an art in an "art form" and the second you start creating rules to abide by you confine your creativity into a small box. Thus map design is subjective and If my thinking contradicts your rule then that means your rule already doesn't make sense. Original Version: "Map design is an art in every way, its subjective at best and the second people start creating rules and boundaries to abide by is the same time they confine themselves to a 10 x 10 box and nuder their creative freedom." - MultiLockOn 2. People can think Extermination maps are either great or terrible for 2v2's and that’s fine. You'll never convince "everyone" that Extermination don't work for doubles because what if some players personally enjoy the amount of depth and movement while playing on them? You could be logistically sound in every argument you make as to why Extermination maps can never be great 2v2 maps but that wouldn't change the positive experience people have playing them because their overall philosophy is different than yours. Original Version: "Lockout could be the greatest or the worst and its not necessarily a bad thing. It emphasizes how subjective map design really is. No matter how much I prefer the depth and movement on Damnation, I will never be able to convince some people that Lockout is a bad map and that's okay. I could be logistically sound in every argument I make as to why something might be superior in every way but that doesn't change the amount of joy and experience players have. Its just philosophically different" - MultiLockOn Spoiler: Second Post 3. Before I explain how pathing, scale, spawning or balance can compliment a dubs map, the most important thing people should know is to not follow any rules on it. Map design is subjective, If my thinking contradicts your rule then that means your rule already doesn't make sense. Original Version: "Before I mention a single thing about verticality, originality, pathing, weapon placement, the most important thing you could know as a map designer is to not follow these rules. When everyone's idea of what a map should be contradict eachother, these rules no longer make sense." - MultiLockOn 4. The more you free yourself of these rules and conventions the more you can open up your mind. Don't be afraid to try to forge an extermination map and make it viable for 2v2 just because someone said you can't do that. Perhaps you can make it work, don't let people tell you what your doing is wrong. Just keep your mind open to everything because there's no wrong map design philosophy. Original Version: "The more you free yourself of these rules the more you can open up your mind. Don't be afraid to throw in a few man-cannons or teleporters around your map just because someone said you can't. You're free to do whatever you want to, the trick is to just make it work. Don't let people tell you what you're doing is wrong because chances are they're trying to convince you to follow a set of guidelines and they're extremely narrow minded. Just keep your mind open to everything because there's no wrong map design philosophy." - MultiLockOn
i guess you missed the fine print. "the trick is to make it work." don't confine yourself to rules such that you wont go through a teleporter that isnt green or go up a ramp that is over 30 degrees or make a map that doesnt have bases. (in other words, dont listen to forge kids who tell you what you can create.) likewise, dont expect people to agree that a scarab gun oninstant respawn in each team's base is good for a competitive map, or a room with only one entrance and no sightlines will not be exploitable, or an indoor map with poor lighting is artistic. without any sort of objective baseline of playability, maps cannot be assesed on anything other than "fun", which is loosely defined at best and arbitraily assigned most other times based on feelings and whims. im sure we dont need to explain why that isnt a reliable way of designing, testing, hosting or critiquing maps - certainly not on its own. it is not contradictory to acknlowege the fact that creativity should be limitless, but can still be assessed with constants. the only hypocritical statements thereafter are those that ironically attempt to rank maps based on a quality that would be completely unquantifiable if everything were truly subjecive and otherwise impossible to analyze. yet here we are going in circles because the 10 odd exterm maps arent part of the "best 2v2 map" recommendations. perhaps - just maybe - there is a reason for that... to quote nathan fillion's desiny character: "eveyone loves a bad idea when it works." unfortunately, in the context of 2v2, playing exterm maps as is will bring a host of issues to the table, and not those of the lockout vs damnation persuasion. but i suppose this is falling upon deaf ears at this point.
I don't want you to miss the fine print either so I'll post again since I agree with you on maintaing critical analysis while designing. " A key to creating a successful map is knowing where the threshold lies of what works and doesn't. Level design is an art but its also a science. Entertain theidea of pushing things in a direction your unfamiliar with. Challenge yourself but think responsibly."
i didnt miss that line. i just feel like this so-called threshold is being bent to include maps that are almost unanimously agreed to present fundamental problems. perhaps some people are more definitive about it than others, but the fact remains that you cant just throw a map built for a specific gamemode into another - especially 2v2 - without having made such considerations along the way. to do so is disengenuous and betrays the most basic elements of level design. i suppose ill reitarate one last time that the chief issue with exterm maps being viewed as 2v2 candidates is that these maps, insofar as i have seen, are fundamentally designed with less segmentation and less safe respawning because it's a 1 life game mode that requires you to find people in 15 seconds. i have yet to see or play an exterm map where i couldnt abuse the spawns to a detrimental effect in a 2v2. i looked over 10 of them yesterday and my mind is unconvinced. perhaps ill list them later if people were curious.
Thats all I'm saying, someone can make those considerations along the way. I think we're on the same page here. --- Double Post Merged, Aug 12, 2017 --- Ascend, remember when I said your maps are getting better after each one you create? Well I meant it, you just outdid your last one, this looks fantastic!
Leave it to Goat to use a mis-quote to indirectly refer to me as a "forge kid". You know who you really shouldn't listen to: people that don't have the competence to finish a map, then publicly explain that the editor is the problem so they can feel not so incompetent, for the entirety of Halo 5. I've been holding my tongue, but I'm sick of it. You are in no position to be judging anyone, Goat.
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I didn't passively aggressively throw any shade your way in that post. Those are the first examples that came to mind (no pun intended there either) when I thought of arbitrary design rules that limit creative innovation. I've heard similar things from other Forgers after lobbies and I consider them regressive philosophies. I just listed most of my maps. There are at least a dozen of them with complete layouts that - at worst - aren't anything extraordinary. I have plenty of dud layouts with easily fixable problems, but I haven't attempted to finish those because I don't value finishing a design for the sake of having a finished design. I want to make maps that are more than that, and most of the projects I've started thus far have run into Forge-inherent issues. I don't expect you to understand those because you have different priorities, and you haven't ventured outside of blockout Forging. But things like color palettes and artistic framing are extremely important to me, and I don't want to design something that doesn't achieve that. I just scrapped a completely playable and functional design because I didn't like the color of the rocks. I simply refuse to compromise my vision. I'm obviously aware that this comes across as vain, especially because I like using ForgeHub to vent; fortunately however, I don't need validation from anyone to the extent of my abilities, least of all you whose insight I no longer respect after your ridiculous position on originality. I would at least be able to disagree with you if you articulated your points, but you made boisterous claims without any accountability. Even without referencing your catalog of maps, that position just came across as dishonest. I published Spellbound a year ago. You've said that you don't like the map because it's repetitive terrain (something I took to heart and haven't repeated since, by the way - because that is how you grow as a designer). Aside from that and other minor gameplay and art issues that I have since addressed in a reforge, the map played very well across dozens of playtests and player skillsets. And again, that was over a year ago. I think my understanding of art and design have improved tremendously since I started taking Forge more seriously, and my willingless to experiment and try new things has only enhanced my visual library.
I mean.. I was seriously considering putting a floor at the bottom that would make all jumps safe, maybe adding 3x over shields down there too, for good measure..
For some reason I'm picturing a map that mixes the movie "as above so below" with the premise of dantes inferno
@xzamplez I honestly wonder what dimension you live in sometimes. You saw this map in Forge with me and you said it was one of my more interesting designs. This design is basically done. I know how it's going to play, because I didnt just start playing video games yesterday, and any potential issue with its spawns or pathing is already accounted for should it need addressing. Do you know why it's not finished? It's because I dont like the canvas lighting. That's literally the only reason. This is why I publicly expressed my dislike for your Forge opinions. You have seen enough of my catalog to know that I am not only a competent designer, but a talented artist who is pushing themes and pushing art way further than Forge is capable of. And the fact that I ***** about it all day only brings more exposure to that. Yet you go out of your way to throw shade that isn't even justified. I'm just disappointed at this point. Makes me wish Schnitzel was still around to roast me.
I don't do that typa **** But that's actually sort of how it was envisioned, thought the 'look' would work better than a literal remake or a house
It's just that you have all these maps you refuse to finish but they look so good and you are so confident that they will play so awesome regardless because your experience of not finishing maps has taught you so much. Then you critique every map that is presented in the Waywo as the know all be all. That's the deal. You are constantly saying how much this design is going to blow our minds and following up the post with another that says F 343, F forge, and F anyone who thinks differently than that. All in the same day. Then starting all over the next day with the same exact cycle. I think that's what he's getting at, no offense.