Well, I didn't really expect anyone to read my entire post. I also didn't expect anyone that is or wants to be "good at Halo" to understand or have any empathy at all for someone that does not want to at least try to be the best. I fully expected those types to believe my thread was some sort of attack on them and what they hold to so dearly that any thought of Halo being "fun" some sort of other way must be derided, ridiculed and or ignored. People that crave the limelight are often loath to share it. 1v1 and 2v2 games can be fun, but when it comes to Forging they are a bit boring. There are a limited number of ways to make a map for a game that small. Most of those ways have been done over and over and over again. I mean it is almost literally make a map, post it, move some trees and rocks and post it again as "another great map". Then change the lighting, move some spawn points and, presto, another great map. What's making Forge "harder" is that Spartans in H5 have things like clamber and sprint so a player can access parts of a given map that they couldn't in H3. It's like Tic-Tac-Toe. There's only 9 squares. Pretty soon you realize that depending on who started you will either win or cause a stalemate. At that point no one will ever play that game with you again. The TL;DR version of my previous post is that 343i needs to showcase more of all the OTHER things people do with Forge that don't necessarily have to do with 4v4 slayer. When 343i puts a player-made map in matchmaking they need to prominently display the player's name/gamertag/whatever. Forging does not need to be competitive. Pitting one map against another only tells me what the judges like, not what I like. And let's face it, both Bungie and 343i suck at making maps for matchmaking and creating gametypes. It took players, using Forge, to make the first race games. Players created Grifball. What's 343i's contribution? Firefight Arcade? Tiny Spartans? Ricochet? There's way more of us than there are of them. Somewhere out there is the Next Great Halo Gametype but if it's not a 4v4 slayer game we'll never see it.
Yeah I find it pretty ridiculous to say that there are only so many ways to design a map for 1v1's or 2v2's. That's just so far from the truth that I don't even know how to come at that statement with a rebuttal because I honestly can't see it from that perspective at all. What I can say is that if any game-type is limiting it would be larger player counts, because you can't get away with as much without either 1) breaking game-play or 2) reaching forge's limits. Technically every map ever made is just a "rearrangement" but a tool even as simple as forge (compared to developer tools) has literally an infinite amount of possibilities. It's not like if everyone forged long enough that we would end up with every map ever. Also, things like clamber and sprint don't change the design process at all really. For instance, In halo 3, you might think to yourself "Do I want to let players crouch jump here?" and now we simply ask ourselves "Do I want players to be able to clamber here?" We are making the same number of decisions.
There's more to Halo than guns and grenades. And there's more to forging than level design. Core maps doesn't mean core gameplay.
Interesting experience... would you say that to get the more recent features that the complexity of using forge was necessary? Or would you say it was an unnecessary complexity akin to 343 just wanting to do things differently to say they improved it?
You're right. Core maps doesn't mean core game play. Core game play means core game play. Core maps mean maps made for core game play. Very astute of you to see that.
It's a combination of both. A lot of it is necessary. A lot of it isn't. There's enormous room for improvement on the U/I end of things to simplify locating objects, selecting colors, etc. A lot of the unnecessary stuff that we're required to do is because of glitches, or things not operating as you'd expect them to. Lighting and inconsistencies in object coloring are the most obvious examples I can think of. But my point wasn't exactly that it's too complex. It was that it's not worth the effort for me, because I don't like how my maps play in this game. My complaints with H5 forge are all relatively minor. It wouldn't make much difference I don't think. If people find what you have to say engaging/interesting, they'll read or watch. If they don't, they won't. The medium through which you share is mostly irrelevant.
I agree 100% with you there. Next to Stardriver, GDT is my biggest influence when it comes to Forging! Don't even get me started. The Sangheili skull shaped cave on Mutineer is actually based on the bomb from The Devil's Backbone. I tried to make the connection very subtle. I don’t think anyone got it. But that's okay. You wouldnt really be able to tell unless you listen to the director's commentary.
Look. I'm not some kind of idiot. When I want to talk about Sandbox Maps I'll make a thread called Sandbox Maps. But right now, I don't believe for one second that Forgehub is going to be a good environment to have that discussion. And frankly your comments are not helping.
What can I say to make you guys understand that I am not trying to make a personal attack on you? I just want to speak my mind. I'm not trying to get everyone to agree with me. I have a right to at least try to make my feelings understood. I love this game too. Why are you trying to make me feel like I don't belong here?
This thread reminds me so much of Forge's predicament. Alex says Forge has a future. This community says Halo sucks so why bother? Why try to explain anything or even have a conversation with a community that has no interest in anything other than winning each other's contests? They don't understand anything beyond making a 2v2 map. They can't conceive the notion that anyone else would want to try anything else. Thing is, when people understand the attention might be turning away from themselves they resort to ridicule. Oldest trick in the book. It is admitting to failure and resorting to changing the subject to something they can win. If you're looking for hope for Forge you won't find it here. It's like trying to explain physics to cavemen.
We've literally been putting random words together that form incomprehensible sentences and you've been replying to them getting mad Ahahaha like I literally was just spamming the "next suggested word" button on my keyboard. I was joking the last two pages of this thread but okay. The notion that you think I don't understand designs for other player is so ****ing ridiculous I don't know what to even say to you at this point.
What reasons for an argument are you looking for. The thread asks a question i.e. what do you think will be the in the future for Forge? That doesn't call for arguments. It calls for ideas. I would like to Forge zero gravity games. That's not an argument, so I'm not going to argue about it. I'll be glad to discuss it, though, since this is supposed to be a discussion forum.