A Letter to Forgehub

So we're just supposed to accept your opinion as our own? lol
I hope the all caps infers sarcasm.

 

Ah, lol. I totally forgot about that.

 

@MultiLockOn Why the **** are we still talking about Oblivion? The map got you a job. Why do you care what people say it did or didn't do within the context of Forge in Halo 5 when it's no longer relevant?

 

I think subjectivity is a cop-out argument. I always tell people that everything is subjective, and if everything truly is subjective, that implies that there is no true good or bad. That doesn't make sense from a philosophical standpoint. If nothing is truly better or worse, then everyone deserves a feature. This would mean that Riptide is equal to Damnation, which is an incorrect statement. When you have something such as level design, that is so isolated in a singular game sandbox, you can easily establish criteria to determine the best and worst maps. People can have bad opinions too. It is possible. You have to understand that before you make definitive statements. If I said I highly enjoyed large, empty, flat boxes for maps, more so than let's say H3 Narrows. That is a stupid opinion for limitless reasons. To dismiss that statement as "subjective" is wildly ignorant.

If that is your mindset, you will never grow as a designer, because you aren't learning from your mistakes, because there theoretically are none. It's a logical fallacy. You can't improve, because everything is just "different" but equal. Now if forge is just a hobby you enjoy, that's fine. But if you want to do level design as a career, you have to understand that there is only objective quality in designs.

@BodeyBode I never said Multi was the best BECAUSE he got hired. I agree that would sound illogical. I said he developed his skills to be the best designer in the Halo community over the years, and that is why he got hired.

@xzamplez first off, don't tell me how to mod. I will contribute to the conversation as I see fit. I do not insult members with my replies, and I always carefully choose my words, as to not represent myself as bias. I've already distributed Multi a warning in this thread, and if he continues inappropriate behavior, I'll act accordingly.

As for my own maps, I won't completely disagree with you.
-Seclusion's design is nothing more than an asymmetrical inspiration of Isolation. I don't enjoy playing it. It was nothing more than a map to familiarize myself with H5 forge pieces and controls. I was actually the only person who didn't push it for matchmaking.
-Loading Zone is where I started focusing more on the design aspect, and I still feel the map accomplishes my design goals. There are a couple areas that could be much better, but the map still plays pretty solid.
-High Guard is where I established a simple art style, so I could focus more on the design, and I think that it speaks for itself. It is the design I'm most proud of, and I could explain every inch of the map, and explain why every piece is exactly where it is. Due to the restrictive nature of forge, I think the map looks terrible, but it plays objectively well. I sacrificed art for playability for the first time, and it is a more accurate depiction of my abilities as a designer.

I'm currently working on stuff that is pushing the envelope for gameplay, as well as my ability to design. Hope I can finish it sometime.

@Dweeb That is the complete opposite of how Optic plays from what I determined. There is no individual skill or intuitive movement because the map is essentially two flat hallways across a death pit. That is why the power-ups are so important, they force players around the map and create encounters. Without them, the map would be slow, and boring. That is why I say that the map plays fine, but I don't believe you should rely on weapons or power-ups to force movement. That is why I enjoy Oblivion so much. You don't need the weapons to promote pushes. They're simply there to compliment the gameplay, not define it. That is objectively the best forge map in Halo.

@A 3 Legged Goat stop saying Halo is bad right now, we get it. That is beside the point lmao
And I guarantee that Oblivion is constantly brought up because of what I said above. Whether people want to admit it, or even realize it.

 

I disagree that High Guard plays objectively well and I disagree that Oblivion is objectively the best map in the game. I'll share why if asked because I still consider these to be some of the best maps in the game. But objectively? I don't think you guys know what this word means.

If both of you guys say these maps accomplish exactly what you set out to do with them, then that's great. But this objective business is cancerous to the Forge community, as the last month of this ongoing discussion has proven. You guys aren't the authority on Forge.

 

It's important to constantly remind you guys how bad Halo 5 is because nobody even agrees on the way maps need to be designed for it. Therefore, what is this objective standard that we are even holding maps to?

I believe you can objectively asses a map based on what it sets out to do, but how do you rank a map among others? It's inherently subjective, especially in this game.

 

I guess it's just going to end up in disagreement once again. Whatevs.

 

@MultiLockOn Make one good unique 4v4 map. Just one. Then I'll start caring about your opinions.

 

I also find it cute that everyone is looking a this from the perspective of how a map plays slayer. I get that's Halos "flagship" game mode, and it sucks 343i shat on us when it comes to gametypes but for Cortanas sake just because a map doesn't reach kill limit for the top 3% of the player base doesn't make it a "bad map" or even a bad slayer map for that matter. It's like you guys forget Halo was made for "causal competitve" players, not as an esports game. That was never bungies intention. Is it great that certian combinations of maps/game modes and base settings work in a esports environment? Certainly, but please don't push that entire ideology on the 97% of the player base that won't ever play the game in that manner.

 

Wish 343 could have these cute debates

 

Do any other FPS esports even use slayer as a competitive game mode? I know CSGO and COD don't. Anyone know if gears does?

 

I think people taking their heads out their asses is a good way to stop butthurt.

I have a strange outlook on all this "subjective" and "objective buisness".

For example, I would argue and provide examples of why the first matrix movie is a superior movie to the sequels.

And yet I prefer the second one. Certain aspects of the second one appeal to me.

But I acknowledge that the first one is a better movie. I don't think of it as "Well the second one is the best one for me". I think of it as I like the second one the most.

And I think Level Designers should allow themselves to capable of a similar outlook. Level design is both subjective and objective, not one or the other. There are objectively stupid things when it comes to level design, things that a good designer steers clear from usually.

But an good designer can also make the crap work to a maps advantage. Eg Lazy cover. Lazy cover is dirty and the majority of good designer will avoid it, with good reason. And yet we Have narrows, and all its lazy cover top mid glory.

Objectively bad stuff can be used appropriately so it is no longer bad in a specific scenario is what I'm getting at.

You can make a great two base/two tower and a **** two base/two tower. And you have the ability to make it interesting too.

I think that doing a simple, formulaic design shouldn't be inherently frowned upon either. But if you are going to do it, you need to work much harder for it to be interesting than an asymmetric design, but an original and good asym is harder to get right.

This is rambling a tad, so I'll end this up with a simple, easily agreeable statement for everyone.

**** sprint