What if War just handed someone money? Would you complain about that as well? Any contest that has judges will have a variable of bias. It's inevitable. It's crazy that you see those designs as simple, proven maps; then look at your maps as if you're reinventing map design. Are your two maps a little more risky than them? Sure. But neither provides a solid experience like Purple Reign. Am I supposed to have a change of heart after seeing that or something? Besides the fact that a couple of those rooms look very similar to Angst, I have no way of knowing how the map plays until I see how they connect. So, no, this map didn't prove anything. Again, I had 25% influence. I'd need to play it to determine whether I'd rate it higher. You understood what kind of map it was (it doesn't take a genius), but you don't understand why it was well-received. I won't call it a bad map. I didn't call Legion or Oblivion bad maps either. It's simply a matter of something that should be predictable not being so. It resulted in awkward experiences whenever flow came to the teleporter. I have no problem with where it takes you, but how you come out is awkward as well. In a different direction in a poorly lit area made of black walls and floors. It was disorienting. --- Double Post Merged, Mar 24, 2017 --- EDIT: Heads Up was probably my favorite map of the contest to play. I pushed for it. However, I agreed with War that the map could slow down to a halt if both teams want to play like scrubs. I have to question your bias for picking Cobalt. It's the exact kind of map you seem to love to trash.
I actually loaded up verminpool. Your lighting is pretty much all coming from physical lights as far as I can tell which means that you don't actually have any lighting techniques going on. Invisible lighting is invaluable assuming you can make it look natural. Otherwise you end with everything being harsh spot lights on the floor...which is what Verminpool looks like. If you're ever done babysitting I could show you lighting techniques That's the thing about judging though I'll just say right now, I've pretty much never had fun on Heads Up. Like, ever. Every time I play it I get my **** pushed in and I still don't know the tele layout that well despite having played it like 10 times. It's super frustrating. But I can look at the map objectively and know that it's an awesome map. It plays consistently fast, is punishing, promotes great decision making, has verticality, everything a map needs to play well really. So despite the fact that I never have fun, I've seen other people have fun and I know it plays well. You're not alone on Cobalt I've heard many other people say the same thing. But I think we can agree that it's one of the better room based maps in Halo 5 (especially at the time). Literally any map that's not an enclosed room will play slow if BOTH teams agree to play it slow. A good map is one that will allow teams to play fast and punish slow teams, there's nowhere to run on Heads Up when you get pushed. I find that ironic considering Hangar plays slower than molasses no matter what you do on it. Little contradictory. You're really telling me you can't come out of a teleporter facing a different direction then how you went in? I'm done talking to you man, that is such a close minded cancerous mentality I can't believe people still have this viewpoint on level design. "But neither provides a solid experience like Purple Reign." Gimme 5 minutes to go design a 3x3 room based map. I don't have anything else to say at this point. Something I've come to realize over time is that if your path finding experience does't match the maps visual theme, then it's not going to be believable. Just because there's cobblestone textures on the wall and arched windows in the wall, doen't mean it feels like a castle ya know? Loading Zone is probably the best example I have of this, every path feels like it works with the theme. The pipes are narrow and suspended above a high death pit, you have small tight corner and doorways separating rectangular rooms. Everything about Loading Zone makes sense with the theme, it's super believeable. Fathom is exactly the wrong way to do it. Because they literally took a 2 base 2 tower and threw a random theme on the map, which is why it doesn't really feel like anything. 343 seems to do that with most of their maps, they're just homogeneous designs with whatever random theme on top. You're one of the few people I've seen actually take this in mind when they build in this game which I love. Old Salt looks like a harbor, and Dead on Arrival is shaped like an old town. Fever Pitch as well. The only one of your maps I'm actually familiar with Fever Pitch which I wasn't a fan of (design wise). I thought the top was the top, and the bottom felt like the bottom and that was really it. The entire map's purpose just seemed to get you to the top, didn't really make sense to me outside of that. I could get more into it but I'll refrain. I'd have to look more into the actual designs and load them up in forge to actually form an opinion on them but there are very very few maps that I think are actually solid experiences in this game. I'll just say that if you're still testing maps to see if they work, you've kind of missed the point of level design. 99% of forgers are at this point, where they hold lobbies and test maps just to make sure there aren't glaring issues or imbalances. I honestly believe if you are still at the point where you're testing maps to work then...you just aren't there yet. I've been doing level design long enough where I pretty much look at something and get a pretty good understanding of exactly how it'll play within a few seconds, which is why every map I've made since Trinity has been the first draft. I haven't actually changed any geometry on anything from any testing session, only spawns and weapons and whatnot, because I know how it's going to play before I even make it. I don't even make blockouts I just go in and forge the first draft which is the final draft. I think people need to get the point where they want to create an experience. "I want the player to feel X way when they load up the map and always be scared to turn the corner" or "I want a map where it feels like you're constantly climbing and can never catch up with the other team" or "I want a map that rewards you from being nowhere near your teammate" or "I want a map where if you ever back down from a fight it means death and you just want to be hyper aggressive and push the whole time (this is Legion)" or "I want a map where whoever can reach the lowest point becomes the strongest player and the focal point". Once someone understands level design enough, they can just come up with concepts like those ^ and now exactly how to go about it. How do you accomplish all those ideas or goals without art and only using raw layout? I don't think many forgers are at that point and that's pretty much what I look for in maps; experiences. Certain themes in the way it plays, not looks. That's why I look at maps like Purple Reign and it's like....why? It's SOOOOOOOOOOOOO boring there's literally nothing remotely interesting about it in the least. I could replicate that style 100 different times but why would I? None of this is really directed at you SIk lmao I'm just rambling. I think you're a great forger, my biggest critique of you would be fool proofing your current designs. Because they've got awesome shape and theme to boot, but most of your maps I've played seem like they've got glaring imbalances or stagnation issues.
Yeah, I literally make what I think looks cool. I'll always have an objective with what I'm making - usually revolving around a particular theme, but I'll never have a design drawn out or thought about. I'll get it as I go along.
I did that for a long time as well. In the end I found the experiences I would make were unstructured. I always think, could I show someone this map without ANY art, just pure white flat blocks, and have them fall in love with the design? Better yet, could you play one of your maps while it is jut a pure white blockout and still be interesting and fun? Could you actually describe the way your maps play? And I don't mean "Good" or "fast" but really describe how it feels to play it. If the answer to any of these are no, I don't consider a map to be good. Would you play Fever Pitch or End of the Line if they were just blockouts? Would be they be fun or interesting? Would they even be balanced and not stagnate at the highest level of play?
Well you can't discern the spawns and sightlines because there's no top down, but the kind of gameplay it suggests is obvious. It's a porous room based map with rotational flow. The only map that was selected that could not be slowed down to a halt was Optic Prison.
I admire Forgers who push Forge boundaries by tackling new and ambitious themes, and I have tremendous respect for anyone who is willing to iterate on, rebuild, or in many cases throw out a design in favor of a new one. I also recognize there are Forgers who are content in doing their own thing, but I would never surround myself with people who couldn't see passed their comfort zone. We don't grow that way. I've bounced around just about every kind of lobby since Halo 5 came out and I know way more about level design now than I did a year ago because of it. Just because Forge has limitations, doesn't mean our mind also needs them.
For somebody that pushes uniqueness so much, I'm surprised you mentioned Heads Up. It's an excellent design, but it's also probably one of the simplest maps I have ever played in Halo 5 lol.
A map can be simple and unique. I don't think complexity necessarily = uniqueness. Ex. Chasm by Slaphead Incredibly simple map. From a macro view it's just a two lane, but it is by far the best symmetrical map I've played in Halo 5. Fun for flag and it actually evokes the feel that Boarding action and Sword base failed to get right.
It's more of the tele hopping that is unique, the shape of the map is just a single atrium. The gameplay is bae tho. What other map plays like Heads Up?
I'm going to contradict myself a bit, but I think some people have the tendency to reinvent the wheel for no reason. Sometimes, you get it right the first time and you should only make small changes instead of sweeping revisions. I've gone back to older ideas, whether it was in forge, or even music or character design, and have improved it by looking at something I did before in a new light.
It may be simple because of its minimalist design approach but its unique in the way it plays, the combat is being framed in a way that isn't traditional. It was a really cohesive project thematically, the physical shared commonalities with the visual. Lots of angular, flat shapes and colors with 90 degrees as its DNA. It was a really difficult contest to judge but I'm still proud of our top 5 selections, I would chose them again if provided the opportunity. It was a crazy idea to take the worst map in the Halo franchise and attempt to fix it. Yet Hazard stood as the most popular map in doubles matchmaking and even won the community favorite map vote for the contest. Goat's right, Overdoziz is highly underrated. We see glimpses of what he's capable of but I'm still waiting to see his Mona Lisa, he hasn't made it yet. We'll all get one of those eventually, I haven't found mine yet either. 'Smokestack' was a great map but was held back due to originality. It shared too much in common with the Aerocrest / Downrush map designs so we held it back. Overall, my attempts in map design have been to uncover an interesting gameplay aspect that no one thought of, doing something unique and creative. These ideals are constantly fighting against another equally important goal of mine, to create something iconic that can stand up next to our favorite maps in the franchise. I'd like to see something I create have as much meaning or importance as the maps I've admired in the past. These two goals are difficult to balance at times because they exist on seemingly opposite spectrums. One side is telling me to make things simple, recognizable, elegant, memorable, the other side is telling me to challenge normality, confront regularness with objection and allow players to engage with the space differently than any other map. Sometimes one side wins more than the other but the constant vacillation keeps things interesting for me. I never get bored with map design, just frustrated.
@WeedCough Not bad at all man, I was expecting way worse. You do a lot of things similar to me; lowest possible brightness and fall off ratio on point lights. There's a few parts of the map where the shadows didn't look evenly cast from their source like here http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/BOWTOTHEMILKMAN/screenshot/5999507 The wall on the right is way more blue than the wall on the left. So I centered the point light and out blue spotlights on the floor on either side to bleed into the next room for guidance. http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/BOWTOTHEMILKMAN/screenshot/5999508 This room in particular looked really flatly lit with no real source that made the floor glow awkwardly http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/BOWTOTHEMILKMAN/screenshot/5999515 Which is a shame because you have a good emissive source right there. I used several point lights to look like a consistent beam coming from it, and then an off white light because pure white looks gross on everything. Also lowered the metallic on the floor so it distributes the light better http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/BOWTOTHEMILKMAN/screenshot/5999516 You can see how I arranged the 4 lights above the planter to angle properly, looks like it's coming from the emissive that way. Also what the **** is with those spawns man ahaha http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/BOWTOTHEMILKMAN/screenshot/5999525 Lights in this room were way too close to a floor that was high metallic which gave it that weird concentrated effect http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/BOWTOTHEMILKMAN/screenshot/5999532 So I tried something weird with really narrow spot lights that mimicked the striped emissive on the ceilings. It was quick and came out sloppy but you get the idea, you could do something really cool with that rooms lighting given the ceiling. Also I put small orange point lights in front of the door http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/BOWTOTHEMILKMAN/screenshot/5999533 This room looked fine was but was just lazy so I tried getting creative http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/BOWTOTHEMILKMAN/screenshot/5999559 I used the grated light gobo which gives it a nice rectangular shape like the strips on the ceiling. Then put soft off white beige point lights behind the bar and over the planter. Again it's kinda sloppy but you see how it can potentially look really cool in that room. Just need to get rid of the divisions down the barred lights http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/BOWTOTHEMILKMAN/screenshot/5999576 http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/BOWTOTHEMILKMAN/screenshot/5999577 Pretty good though overall. You've lit all the doorway divisions to clearly mark where curves are, and all your light gradiants are soft and gradual. Just try to stay away from pure white lights because they look tacky, and a lot of your lights bleed into one another so you kill your shadows and everything looks flat. Solid job though, I didn't take a loot at the other map yet.
Smokestack was eliminated because it looked too much like Downrush but Purple Reign and Hazard didn't get eliminated for copying tic tac toe boards? Overdoziz was robbed, that map should've been top 3. I could care less which map won the vote, everyone here with a brain knows that Hazard and Hangar were by far the slowest playing maps that were chosen, and of the matchmaking bunch (minus Malta which was straight up broken). How maps that consistently ended by time limit were chosen as winners in a 2v2 contest is beyond me. Also how was Heads Up cut for being too slow yet Hangar made it. Is this a joke lol