Most race tracks do not take any sort of effort. There are tracks that do however. This is why I brought up trials the other day. Supercross tracks follow the same principles as a trials track. Not to the insanity levels that trials do but still time consuming and more difficult in some ways because the game is not designed for it. I would probably side with you on this if I didn't spend a ton of time playing them in Reach. I thought tracks were dumb until I played these type of tracks and they required the user to actually learn the map and have skill as a driver. It wasn't just as simple as holding forward because to have the best chance of winning the user had to hit every jump with the right speed and angle. I believe that is where is Xzample is coming from as well. As he was the one that got us playing them besides just 1v1 and 2v2's at the time. I think it is silly to discredit styles of map design just because A.) It isn't what you do. B.)Most have not been given the attention/judgement to really show how good they can be. Example: I think Buddy Jumps linear infection map is sick and actually shows shows some promise in what infection can be. Will it? We will have to wait and see. Most infection maps fail at almost everything. I do think most if not all of these maps suck. I blame the community behind these styles more than anything for them not being as developed as core maps because they have a smaller player base and typically the players lack in the mechanical skill department and general game design concepts. This is usually why they gravitate to these gametypes because it is less competitive to create maps for and what leads to the poor quality. Griffball maps are just boxes.
I never discredited anything because I don't personally design them. I discredited the notion that things like grifball are as strenuous or difficult as core map designing. ESPECIALLY arena games with extended health pools, varied weapon sandboxes, and high movement speed/jump height AND team sizes. These mechanics are what make it difficult, not because I personally do them. I couldn't possibly imagine the most skill based racing game in the would having complicated level design so long as it's a long flat track. This isn't me being douchey, it's just being realistic. Just like I don't think all pro sports take as much skill as one another, I wouldn't say it's as hard to become a pro bowler as it is a baseball player so I wouldn't pretend everything is equal. Gfiffball is just aesthetics. Infection has a lot of potential to be awesome. Honestly I don't see it with race tracks, ESPECIALLY in Halo but I'm welcome to discussion.
I would agree with a long flat track. But tracks that have a ton of jumps and turns do take quite a bit of skill. I think that it is more trial and error based to get them right but a track that is difficult to race and requires a ton of driving skill show that race tracks have that sort of potential. The only thing I can really say is there is a lack of originality that you will eventually run into but I feel the same about core design because I have seen something similar to every map posted in this franchise by other forgers or in other games. Sure you can try to do gimmicks put even still people have done gimmicks before. Griffball is something I would never argue for. I only argue for race because of personal experience and being shitted on by people in it that I would beat in 2v2's and 1v1's. Then we would race a typical track and I could beat them. Supercross styled tracks take skill and a game like trials shows how creative someone can be with them. I would be right there with you if I hadn't spent time in Reach racing on these types of tracks or being exposed to a game like trials. I think the best comparison to core is the following: supercross tracks = unique asym. (take time to smooth out the wrinkles and ensure a smooth experience.) normal rollercoaster track = 2 base 2 tower donut. (very straight forward and don't take any time to smooth out.) I will also note there are plenty of boring supercross tracks just like there are plenty of boring asyms.
You're right, comparing them to core is pointless, but because they require less thought put into them. They're different in the fact that there is no meta to a racetrack. You move in a singular direction that connects back to the start. It doesn't matter how many dips bends or curves you have, because it will always be just that. The players do not interact with each other, they just pass each other. You can put as much thought as you want into a racetrack, but at the end of the day, it will still just be a loop. I'm not determining who is knowledgeable, I'm determining what requires more thought and skill to produce. These are things we can measure objectively. To say they are just "different" is silly. After all, we're comparing types of maps, not apples to porcupines.
I think the skill ceiling on race track design is about ankle deep if we're going to be honest here. The creative limits your placing on arena design seems a little exaggerated don't you think
ultimately all you are doing in a core map is killing other players. just to play devils advocate. You are over simplifying it. You try to stop people from passing. You try to make people crash. You put yourself in position to pass someone. Players interact with each other. You guys just don't understand because you have no experience with it. Sure I am committing a logical fallacy but your argument is just as much of one.
Okay, now if in a racetrack cars could jump, and move omni directionally, shoot each other, while still having to complete laps, you might have a better comparison to an area game.
I'm just saying racers only interact with each other when they bump into each other physically. For core gameplay, you have to understand how EACH area on the map affects another area. You have to balance power positions, and essentially make every spot stronger AND weaker than a different spot on the map. There is an absurd amount of critical thinking for actually good core maps. You don't get that with racetracks. You kind of did with battle tracks in H3 though. Passengers could snipe each other, so each section of the track actually would have to make sense, but once you remove the interaction, the whole thing devolves into moving forward.
I think you are the one who is putting the limits on something. I am trying to explain race in a way you will understand. Because you clearly have no knowledge of race based on your oversimplification of it. That is why I tried comparing the two things even though they are different because of your simple outlook about race. I am just trying to get you guys to show more respect for something that you don't understand. Hell, I don't even like racing. I have spent a ton of time experimenting with arena design, more than pretty much everybody on this forum, and I admit that race runs it limitations as far as originality in this game as I have already stated but I still saw a large variety of supercross tracks in Reach more than you would think and Trials has so many different tracks. To this day I have not seen something in Halo 5 from someone that I have not seen before other than Kurismic's 2v2 flag map in this franchise or another.
I think you are over simplifying it. A unique track requires the user to think about how they have to approach the track to catch the people in front of them. There is a difference between what the person does that is in first just and the people behind them. Just like there is in core design. I am done arguing about it though. I just wanted to see how well I could argue for it for the most part. I think dismissing something that you don't understand is really silly. The fact that you only supported it when it involved killing just shows your bias towards your own preferences. You guys don't even know what type of tracks I am talking about so it doesn't matter.
I'm not dismissing anything, and I never said it was easy. I just don't see any type of design being as prone to abuse or thought provoking as arena level design. If you want to make a case for it online tonight you know I'm all ears
I'm very familiar with race within the Halo universe. I understand you have to know how to catch up to players by using the track, but you do that in core too, only at a more complex level. You can move any direction X,Y,Z and use the map to do the same as race, strictly for movement. Everything you can do in race, you can do in core, only there are more elements to consider in core, like sightlines, vertical movement, spawning, weapon placement, etc. This isn't about preference, if you measure the factors to consider when creating a map, core requires more skill and thought.
This is so sad, quite a few of you are leaders in this community, this is very discouraging watching everyone discredit and tear down things in this game people love (this became more than a friendly debate). I know I'm putting myself in a bad light here, but saying publicly how stupid or how brainless something is, just comes off as discouraging from any everyday forger. I've watched some of you for years make some awesome stuff, you really helped build this community, set examples, give help, etc. However that has changed lately, the toxic circle that some of you are in has become so clouded, that you won't ever see anyone outside of it. I would never want to ask some of our veteran forgers for advice because of threads like this. You build each other up within the circle, you argue, you review only eachothers maps and rarely help give feedback to others. I don't speak out much, but some of you have made these threads as toxic as the presidential debate. I love this community, but many of our community leaders have said so many things to discourage the community because they hold a narrow viewpoint of how things are done. Get over yourselves, you are a large contributor to what makes up the toxicity of the community. If you felt guilt or anger from this, then this was for you. I'm tired of being silent and watching our community be discredited from the veterans that should be helping them. I've lost respect for so many of you. I seriously ask that you figure out why this conversation is public and what purpose it is serving. I love the creativity of our community, we know who some of the best are without saying it. Appreciate the community for the skill sets they have. Whether it's, core, race, mini-games, infection, etc. They all require work, skill, dedication, and passion... simple or not, when creating or inventing, some of the best things discovered were simple. A light bulb is simple, and it was one of the best ideas!
1: This IS a friendly debate, we're all good friends here. 2: There is always arguing, we're on a level design forum. There's no more or less toxicity then there ever was or ever will be 3: No one has ever accused me of not helping others with their maps 4: No one is degrading griffball or race or any type of level designers. We're just pointing out some are more demanding than others. There's no shame in that, no one here wants to sit around politically correct and say everything is perfectly and exactly equal because that's idiotic. There's no reason to be offended, it's just discussion and I'm sure nobody would want Halo without a single one of it's niches. 5: Unnecessary posts like yours are the only ones starting any sort of drama.
The Forge community wouldn't be what it was without the fun stuff like mini games and infection and the serious stuff like core maps. In the end, everyone benefits from an active base of creators. But in a thread of "best Forgers", you are going to see people judging one another based on their holistic skillset, and for 90% of the Forge population, that falls onto core Forgers. These Forgers happen to be friends with each other and only review their friend's content because people who don't know them probably wouldn't be able to handle real feedback or even respond to it. Many of them do reach out to help, whether it's out of genuine interest of self gratification, but people just complain about their "opinions".
Race lines, accelerarion, jump placement, etc. I can do this all day. --- Double Post Merged, Feb 8, 2017 --- Yeah make a race map instead of a niche gametype like slayer.