*DARES AND LIES* Disclaimer: I'm not good at forging! That's not me looking for compliments I promise. So what follows is my last attempt at making something that sort of resembles a competitive halo 5 map. I used Truth as a template in the hopes that if I based it on something that I already know and enjoy that maybe I'd have better luck and possibly learn something along the way. I spent countless hours on this thing because I really enjoy it but that doesn't change the fact that I suck at it and I say this only as a way to manage expectations. I love you all. *** New 4v4 map based on Truth (oh no! Another one?! Yea... sorry?...) and trying to incorporate a playable bottom mid section (for potential flag runs) and more developed (larger) bases. There is also a sizable deathpit and a Construct-style 2 tiered bridge, and no P3 location. Map is ready for play testing and supports slayer, strongholds, CTF, and FFA. The map is pretty much in blockout phase. I had more of an aesthetic but the frame drop was getting serious so I scrapped it. *** I owe a huge shout to @BodeyBode and @xdemption. They showed up when I was out of ideas and ready to throw in the towel and ended up getting me really excited about a new direction and a bit more purpose. So for both their good timing, their energy, and their general forge-genius, I offer a very sincere "thank you, gentlemen." *** GT: Seems Dangerous Map Name: Dares and Lies (test 2) ~ current Link: Dares and Lies PICTURES Bottom Mid (from blue side) Overlook (from Red Porch) Bottom Mid (from red side) Pink Tower (from Blue Outside) Carbine Tower (from Red Street) Bird's Eye View (from Heaven)
I mean this in the most constructive way possible, but I've seen this map a million times already in Halo 4 and MCC and two of them shipped with Halo 5. What is this map doing different from Midship beyond making it shallower? I ask because I don't think you're going to get anything from playtesting that you wouldn't already discern from looking at the map objectively. You're going to get a whole lot of traffic on the sides, none whatsoever in the middle, and players are going to cross map each other and peek back into cover until someone gets ballsy enough to attempt a spawn trap. This isn't going to play 4v4 because you can go anywhere you want from anywhere else and see the other players at all given times. To that credit, your bottom is actually probably the map's saving grace since it is relatively safe and sees everything while being seen from nothing, but it doesn't do anything of value beyond that and has less attacking power than it did on midship. I don't think the map is too small horizontally, but I'm not sure why you flattened it and cut out valuable playspace to direct players somewhere they have absolutely no reason to go to. Furthermore, you've said you're tackling framerate and I see at least 100 objects that are being used inefficiently. The simple blocks framing your windows, the ramps all over the map - there's no reason you should have framerate on a design that is more or less still in blockout phase. I appreciate what the map is trying to do visually, but I don't think this is going to be worth polishing for gameplay. You could take the elements of this that you really like and make something more ambitious because I think there is potential in a 2B2T design featuring death pits. Perhaps you can tunnel under the bottom floor of the map to fight up through them. I think that would give the map some character.
I appreciate all your feedback man. I probably should have mentioned in that wip that I'm a ****ing terrible forger; no talent, no ability whatsoever. I wanted to make one map that wasn't complete trash, just to have something finished. so I used truth as a template because I've always loved the various iterations of that map. So originality wasn't really a focus because it's not possible for me. The idea for bottom mid path was for a potential flag run. I have hopes for it but we'll see. If first text impressions are that the map is fun and has potential I'll make edits, if not I'll just be done with trying to forge. I do have to respectfully disagree when it comes to it not being worth it to polish it for gameplay. If it's fun then it's worth it to finish it, at least to me. I haven't seen any 4v4 play tests yet so I'll see what happens. It is what it is man, we can't all be artists.
I'm not trying to talk down on you. But in response to your first point, there are good ideas on the map and I think highlighting those areas will lead to a more fun design and more growth for you as a Forger because you'll be tackling uphill challenges that will spur creativity and problem solving. I'd imagine that demption and bodey had similar things to say about the design, but you sound apathetic though so I'm not going to push it.
No dude I don't think your talking down to me. You're giving insightful and honest feedback, very constructive. It's just that the only way I've been able to make something that even hinted at havin potential was to essentially copy another map. I'm not salty about it, I just have no talent for this and so I really just wanted to make something I could play games on and go, ok cool. Good game. I made this. Success. Honestly if there are good ideas here and I try to pull them out I wouldn't do it right. Straight up. I love forge and I love being involved in the ways in which I do have something to offer but when it comes to creating maps I'm just never going to be any good at it and I'm completely fine with that. I'll still try to make changes and things but if I let myself get too invested it would end in a great deal of frustration- this from experience. Feel me?
Hooray, but- nar·cis·sism ˈnärsəˌsizəm/ noun excessive or erotic interest in oneself and one's physical appearance. synonyms: vanity, self-love, self-admiration, self-absorption, self-obsession, conceit, self-centeredness, self-regard, egotism, egoism "his emotional development was hindered by his mother's narcissism" PSYCHOLOGY extreme selfishness, with a grandiose view of one's own talents and a craving for admiration, as characterizing a personality type.
I am about to embark on what im guessing is going to be a very long and tiresome journey across the Halo community to gather 2 high level HCS Teams to do some extreme playtesting on my map "Port 66". I got into a very long discussion with @MultiLockOn last night about the map and it was through this discussion that I confirmed to myself what I previously knew before; If we as forgers are going to push our designs to the high possible standards they can be pushed to, we need teams of extremely high level players to play test these maps at the top level. Conjecture is nice, and we can make the best imformed judgments about how a map will play at the highest level but there is no way of knowing exactly how a map that may function just fine for 95% of the player base will function when being played by teams at the top 5% of the halo community. Ecspcially maps that may be on a tipping point of balance. Maps that may appear to only have one playstlye, but through suddleties unseeable by an outside perspective, may play in a complety unimagined way. There is a point in a maps creation where very small changes will cause huge ripples for high-level play. This includes but is not limited to power weapon placement, and small geometry changes. I'm going to trudge through waypoint and message all the champion arena players I can find. I'll be going through twitch and to various media outlets like twitter where HCS players frequent as an attempt to contact these players. I expect to fail and fail a lot but with persistence this is something I believe to be very achieveable. I'm going to offer 200 dollars for a 2 hour twitch streamed play session on my map. This equates to 12.5$ an hour for each player. I will be possibly introduce prizing money, such as each teams players put 20 dollars into the pot and the team with the most victories at the end of the matches will receive that money on top of the the 25$ they earned for playing. So the losing team will leave with 5 dollars each and the winning team 45$ each. These are just a few ideas and this entire processes will likely take some time. Anyone here have any input on this idea?
my unsolicited advice to you, as someone who has done exactly the thing you are proposing, is this- the hard part isn't finding 8 champs to play each other. You could get that organized in an hour and you won't need to offer money. In fact there are a couple lobbies that already see a fair share of random top tier players. The harder ask is finding full teams. A team of four random champs isn't going to take you to that deeper place you're looking for but a team that runs together and has tight commmunocation will be able to expose things you never thought of. And the teams are hard to get mostly because they want to use all their free time to scrim and run on the maps they know they will use in competition. Its harder to get two regular teams but I think it's necessary to get the kind of testing you're looking for.
@SaltyKoala In my opinion I don't think pro gameplay is going to benefit you for Port 66. I think the only reason you would invite good players to test your map is if you wanted them to exploit it, but people are already exploiting Port 66 in Forge lobbies. 95% of the playerbase is going to play the map the way a Forge lobby plays it, because Forgers play maps like 95% of the playerbase. If the map isn't already playing the way it was intended, then I don't think it ever will. Good players will simply have better thumbskill, communication and coordination, so they may be able to pull off the strategies that you believe are necessary to play the map the way you intended, but they are going to exploit every advantage they have to win. So that means sitting behind doorways and thrusting back after putting a few shots in; crouching in chokepoints to stay off radar and melee anyone who passes by; ignore power weapons that aren't worth the risk; and yes, they might even sit on trees and avoid combat entirely. I doubt Bungie intended people to sit on the bottom of Sword Base and camp 0-0; the map probably played great in their playtesting lobbies when everyone was jetpacking all over the place. I think Port 66 has the opposite problem. I have a lot of respect for what Port 66 wants to do and I don't think anyone is opposed to a linear style map. I just think your time would be better invested into evaluating the design. "Forge kids" will say whatever they want in lobbies, so it makes sense that you'd rather be reactive than proactive. But HCS pros aren't training on this map to perfect strategies for money on the line tournaments; this is going into an unranked social matchmaking playlist for the general population, and they're going to be playing with no coordination, no communication, and most likely less than adequate skill to pull off the strategies that you intended.
I think it's a fabulous idea, and will be extremely difficult to pull off. Merder's response is spot on. I really hope you can pull it off though. Watching Naded and a couple of other high level players play 1 game on Epicborough in H2A made obvious some flaws that I had overlooked previously, and I already had some thoughts on how to address the issues before the game was even done. That was after months of not seeing or experiencing anything that convinced me that any changes were necessary on the map. So yeah, I think having highly skilled players/teams play on your map is extremely valuable and helpful. Good luck in your quest.
Pros aren't pros because they're smarter than us. They're pros because theyre more skilled than us. There's no excuse for any designer to look at a map and not recognize flaws, skill level isn't an excuse.
Obviously there are flaws in every design. The difficult part isn't necessarily in finding flaws, it's in finding which flaws are going to negatively affect the way a map plays at a high level. A flaw that might not be exploited at all at one level of play may be game-breaking at a higher level. It's not always obvious when that's the case.
When I talk about flaws in a map I'm exclusively talking about the highest level of play. Nothing else matters.