Halo Objects

Discussion in 'Halo and Forge Discussion' started by Kagemusha, May 27, 2008.

  1. Kagemusha

    Kagemusha Ancient
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    I am very sorry, I forgot to give these people credit. I am not use to this plagiarism stuff,
    this was not my work. I got it from Halo.Bungie.Org. :( That said... What should be my punishment for this?

    Determining a system of measure

    The folks at Bungie were smart in making well over 90% of the characters, weapons, objects, and environments in Halo: Combat Evolved a consistent and uniform scale. It makes determining the true sizes of items in the Halo universe a feasible endeavor. Most 3D programs can determine the outer boundaries of any object made or imported within them. In this example, the 3D program is 3D Studio Max. An arbitrary system of values are given to each object imported into the program. These numbers are consistent with each other with the notable exceptions listed later in this discussion.
    Is this accurate?

    Once I have access to numbers, they need to be made meaningful. To make them mean something in the real world, I need to at least have a definite value to calculate against. The easiest choice is the height given for the main character, Spartan-117. There are still debate as to how high John really is, but the most accepted value is around 7ft tall. I'll assume for this discussion that it's 7ft tall while he's in his armor.

    Take a look at the following diagram. It's from 3D Studio Max and it shows the Spartan mesh and the related properties for it. The Z value is the most meaningful one for this discussion. According to that number, the Spartan mesh is 0.704 in height. What does that number mean? It's a number that tells us the mesh is that high in the vertical plane. It's helpful to game developers for ensuring that a character can walk through appropriately-sized halls and doorways by making them at least 0.704 or greater as well as other purposes. I need to turn that number into a meaningful value. If I were to multiply the number of the Mesh Value by ten, and called the resulting number a value measured in feet, then the Spartan mesh would be 0.704 x 10 = 7.04 (feet). That makes John just a hair over 7ft tall...that works for me! Ten may be an overly simplistic value. Perhaps it should be 10.06554 or something similar, but the point is just to get a number that allows us to translate meshes in the Halo universe into real numbers that are meaningful. As more cross-referencing is done, it becomes apparent that the 'ten factor' works for other sources as well. One that comes to mind is that the weapons for the Joyride Studios action figures are scaled to their figures the same way the mesh Marines have similarly scaled mesh weapons. The MA5B Assault Rifle is the same length whether you use this system to determine it's real world value or you just take a Halo action figure's AR, measure it, multiply by the figure's scale, and you'll get the same number.
    [​IMG] Here's another example; the size of the Pillar of Autumn. In the diagram below, much like the Spartan mesh, I can see the three values of the outermost boundaries of the Autumn. The number that represents it's overall length is 384.064. Remember that both the Master Chief and the Pillar of Autumn are the same relative size to one another. So I have to use the same conversion number, ten. So 384.064 x 10 = 3840.64 feet. This is where it gets creepy. If I change the value to metric, 3840ft becomes 1.17km. Does the system work? Did Bungie intend the Autumn to be 1.17km long? Or is it just another coincidence of the number 117 showing up so frequently with them?! :)

    [​IMG]Exceptions to the rule

    There are only a few objects in all of Halo: Combat Evolved that are presented smaller than the intended scale. The reason is to save on computer and memory resources within the context of the game. The following are objects that are not scaled with everything else in-game:

    1. The Halo ringworld (full ring in space)

    2. Planet Threshold and its moon Basis

    3. The full version of the Truth and Reconciliation

    It's obvious that a ring that's supposed to be 10,000km across is not going to be actually in the game at that size. You see Halo in its entirety on a couple of occasions; such as the view out the bow of the Pillar of Autumn's bridge viewport, and its destruction at the game's end. Halo's scale is internally consistent within itself, but it's not to scale to the other characters, vehicles and environments of the game.

    Similarly, the Planet Threshold and its moon Basis are out of scale with everything else. Threshold and Basis, as 3D objects are seen as holograms in the Halo Control Center. The giant planet seen in the sky or in space is only a bitmap backdrop surrounding the environment you play in.

    The Covenant Cruiser 'Truth and Reconciliation' is only seen whole on two occasions in the game. The first is in a self-titled chapter when the mission is to reach the ship's ground-side gravity lift. Cortana tells us that the ship is holding position 300m above the ring, but because the mesh has been scaled down it's actually much closer than that. There are two versions of the Truth and Reconciliation...the full ship, as seen above the mesa, and the part that's visible when you're on board and in the Covenant shuttlebay. The two ships are scaled differently by a factor of 2.5. The 'true' size should be the segment containing the shuttlebay, and therefore, all the other adjoining corridors and rooms. The smaller (full) mesh is likely just to save on computer resources again and as I don't get any closer to it than viewing it from the ground, it's real size and height in-game is hard to determine just by looking.

    Conclusions


    By determining a conversion factor to translate a mesh value into a known one, and having some known value by which it can be verified, the items, characters, vehicles, and locations in the Halo universe can be calculated.

    The following charts are many of the ships, vehicles, and weapons from Halo. Each chart is consistently scaled to itself, and the small item on each chart becomes the basis of the one following so you can see the very large down to the very small. The formula determined above is used to obtain the values listed for each object. There are a few exceptions as I tried to logically place a few Halo 2 objects on the chart and determined their values through other scaling means, usually in reference to a known value. Suffice it to say, the Halo 2 objects will be corrected, if needed, as more information becomes available.

    Follow the red-outlined boxes for more charts
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    #1 Kagemusha, May 27, 2008
    Last edited: May 30, 2008
  2. K1llersnipe

    K1llersnipe Ancient
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    Wow nice, looks like that took a LOT of time.
     
  3. Snipers Stealth

    Snipers Stealth Ancient
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    I have no shame in saying I was lost after the first sentence. All I get is that things are sizes and some are smaller.
    It's great of you to share whatever it is though, if I understood it it may even help me.
    Don't worry, I'm sure some will understand, and I give kudos for sharing this with us...whatever it is.
    Thanks for the info!
     
  4. furbyxxx

    furbyxxx Ancient
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    Not only is this extremely unhelpful for forge but is a direct copy of some else's research in which you had no part of assessing. You even copied word for word his assessment. follow the link and you will all see justice...http://nikon.bungie.org/misc/sloftus_scalecomparison/
     
  5. Jordan117

    Jordan117 Ancient
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    furbyxxx is right. Kagemusha's first post is copied verbatim from the essay Determining the Real Sizes of Objects in Halo by longtime HBO member Stephen Loftus, AKA "SoundEffect". It's part of a series of in-depth articles and analyses of his that you can read in full here.

    Copying this work and posting it as your own is either very lazy and foolish or very wrong. Your call, Kagemusha.
     
  6. Reynbow

    Reynbow Ancient
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    This would have been fine if you credited it... But you didn't...

    Nice work... =\
     
  7. Nemihara

    Nemihara Ancient
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    I'm fairly certain once Kage gets back and reads all of this, he'll put the credit in for Mr. Loftus. Until then, there is no more need for, 'You stole this! Link:', because it has already been pointed out. Anything after this post will be considered pointless spam and will be dealt with accordingly.

    Edit: BTW, that's just a complete copy of what Loftus said over at HBO, so that explains the first person explanations.
     
  8. furbyxxx

    furbyxxx Ancient
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    just to add on... i don't think its such an issue that he copied it but look at this report...It has nothing to do with forge what so ever. It mostly deals with objects from the first two halo games.
     
  9. Jordan117

    Jordan117 Ancient
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    Sorry if I overreacted. It's just that I've had content of mine claimed by someone else as their work on more than one occasion -- including by a Kenyan journalist writing for the Mombasa newspaper Coastweek (no joke). So I guess it's natural to feel a bit bristly when I see it happening to somebody else, especially if it's someone I know from another site.
     
  10. Nemihara

    Nemihara Ancient
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    Jordan, you wrote that entire article for Halopedia? You deserve a medal, that was epic and thrilling to read.
    Addendum: You, sir, deserve Recon for this piece of work. Brilliant. You should see if Bungie will let you make books for them, that story was incredible and gripping.
     
    #10 Nemihara, May 29, 2008
    Last edited: May 29, 2008
  11. MealonX

    MealonX Ancient
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    I like the amount of time you put into it, you get a gold star [​IMG]
     
  12. Jordan117

    Jordan117 Ancient
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    Hey, thanks! The article as it stands now is not exactly mine anymore, though, since it's seen extensive changes since then. The original version (which I ported from an earlier version of Halopedia, before the two wikis merged) is here.

    Thanks. :D

    I did it for a contest UNSCDF had at the time, so it's actually a tad shorter than I wanted it to be so it could fit in the limit. I'm thinking of revising it and finishing it for HBO's fanfic section, just as soon as Louis Wu implements some of the extra features he says are coming to the submission form. Some examples of what I had in mind...

    Oh, and about the Recon stuff: I fear I may have may have disqualified myself. But seriously, others have written far more impressive stuff than me. Still, thanks for the kudos! :)
     
  13. Kuwanjahbee

    Kuwanjahbee Ancient
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    Looks interesting. I'm not to interested in Scale, but the High charity v. Halo picture was interesting.
     
  14. myonlydetriment

    myonlydetriment Ancient
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    The thread really gives a great perspective on the game, especially the surprisingly smallness of High Charity. It's unfortunate that you plagiarized it.
     

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