Community Cartographers

I'd join in on that but I would end up being that player who makes the lobby 17/16 so we can't start the match so I'd then slink away misunderstood.

I haven't interacted with any of the CC's so I'm in no place to pass judgement on a personal level. What I can say is I appreciate the tutorials on the ForgeHub channel, the articles they contribute here, and whatever community interaction they do offer. The only place I can readily see an issue is in transparency and overall communication to the broader Halo community (i.e. people outside of ForgeHub). However, I understand that they're bound to legal silence by 343i so they are not always in a position to distribute information in a fair manner. If there is anything they could actively work to change without having to struggle with 343i is their own organization and process in order to make it as fair as possible when it comes to things like map selection for matchmaking.

Whatever the CC's do decide on doing moving forward in terms of changes, the process needs to be open to the public in at least terms of visibility due to how the community distrusts the CC's in general. At this point open communication can only improve the situation as hearing nothing is worse than something. Another option to consider is the CC's agreeing to some kind of system to keep them accountable for fulfilling their roles. I understand people have busy lives and the CC position is entirely for fun, but if you can't fulfil your duties to the community for months on end it would probably be best if the CC stepped down. The main reason I bring this up is I know there are numerous capable community members who would excel at the role and could participate as frequently as needed. Having a CC consistently absent only hurts the community and its interaction with 343i.

 

I've come to the same conclusion after not caring or expecting to get anything I make into MM and then my time just lurking during H4 and H2A.

That said, the way Salty was responded to in the OP as well as some insulting things I have heard CCs blatantly say about a notable forger in the community because they don't like them are problems.

 

Drop the mic like Kanye West, that's what winners do.

BTW, are you gonna leave H5 right over the DOOM or are you going on to greater levels of soul-searching?

 

Let's use the DOOM map maker to remake Blood Gulch and become the Community DOOM-ographers. Our demon empire will run on remakes and puzzle maps; we'll be truly evil.

 

Ahh I can add something as well, let me take you back to the days when forge maps were considered for the HCS settings for H2A.

As some of you may remember there were like 6 maps considered, including my map 'Eden'. An asymmetrical map that played slayer, oddball and hill.

However I was never able to join in on testing, as most of you know that I have never been able to.

What happened though, was that one of the CC's continously talked crap about my map, because it was the biggest competition for his own map. He would keep saying how HIS map was better in every way when he got the chance.

That to me was when I lost all respect for that person. You might wonder how I know this when I wasn't even there when it all happened. Well, I got that intell from another CC that didn't agree with his way of acting at all.

So concluding, there is some **** in the CC's and there is some pure passion and love in there as well.

 

M

My issue with this is what happened with hcs as cc's pushed maps with way less testing and obvious issues instead of more polished maps. ****, the majority were to big. That includes both cc maps.

 

I'm going to try to avoid getting bogged down in this thread because I really hate drama and I think Chunk and a few others have already said more or less what I would like to. However, I think I need to clear one thing up.

I was initially quite surprised to see how my response to Salty's post the other day was misconstrued as... whatever it's been claimed to be since. After re-reading it, I can somewhat understand how the language in it was mistaken as me 'talking down' to Salty. For the record, I've known and respected Salty for years and was genuinely curious to know which maps he was referring to. The point of my post was to eliminate concern about the relationship of the 2v2 contest and a possible matchmaking playlist and to urge Salty to support his post by listing the maps he thought so highly of from outside the contest. I never got anything actionable in response and I still am in the dark as to which maps were being referred to.

I apologize that my post came off differently than I intended and thank those of you who have provided honest, constructive, and actionable feedback in this thread.

 

How has he been a prick? What, specifically, has Duck done to offend you, and the community at large?

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 26, 2016 ---

I'm genuinely curious, by the way. I just want some context to understand why these feelings exist.

 

You could also add he wasn't playing the game at all until said hcs map selection process and made a map pushed it like crazy and then went out of his way to lie to people about pushing it. When said people probably would not have been suspicious since they made a point to say something about this habit to him.
Really though we are both talking about Fated. No need to not say names waiho.

 

Since this is happening I'm just going to put everything out there and spell out my feelings.

The COMMUNITY cartographers for Forge, should be either 1 of 2 things. They should be outstanding community members that are the mouthpiece of the community (not 343), communicate and are involved actively on forums, and genuine all around great guys that are present on all fronts of the Halo community. OR, they need to be the best of the best forgers that understand map design, forging, game design, etc. better than anyone. I don't think the cartographers are either.

@WARHOLIC is always involved and seems like the front man. I've seen him regularly converse over party chats with people he probably doesn't even like, and he does so in a very friendly manner. To be honest, I don't think I've ever even played a Warholic map nor can I name any but I don't care. He's a great community member and he's almost always available when I've needed him. Great guy overall.

@NOKYARD Keep on doing your thing man. You're good.

@The Fated Fire @Psychoduck

So this means a lot, and I appreciate it. Most of my resentment towards Fated comes from events that transpired near the end of h2a, since then our relations have been much better. I can't say the same for Duck.

Xandrith's quote was one example of many. It honestly seems like a never ending supply of underhanded remarks whenever you post on the forums. I'd say the same about Fated but he rarely posts, which is strange for a community cartographer to not interact with the community. Bu as I mentioned at least Fated has interacted and apologized on several occasions to members he's talked down to and as of right now I don't have an issue with him.

I understand what Chunk is saying, and he's not wrong. But there needs to be much, much more transparency. I highly doubt 343 is standing over the CC's shoulders telling them not to publicly tell the community what maps they're looking for. What could possibly go wrong from actually being transparent? Your favorite and 'trusted' forgers will still make their maps, and you'll have a surplus extra to choose from. Myself and many others were pretty bothered when we weren't told to make BTB maps OR Breakout maps, two separate examples within the past 3 months alone. I find that to be really insulting, and if the CC's truly had the community in mind they would've made this public.

What's saddest is seeing how discouraging it is to watch forgers literally stop forging because of this. Especially when map design is such a passion for so many people, there's something wrong with the system if its driving away community members. It needs to be changed, or the cartographers in the system need to change their behavior.

Think about that. People are quitting forging because of the cartographers. That's not okay.

It's pretty obvious that within the small handful of active cartographers there are horrendous biases. I first noticed this during the MYM Squad contest during H2A and the results, but it's pretty obvious that Duck's opinion are heavily swayed by his feelings towards forgers

 

Just say it so you look less like an ass.

 

I understand your feeling of being slighted, but I genuinely want to know what happened. This shift in attitude seems unprovoked to me because I haven't seen any of the drama or instances leading up to this. I just want to know some background information for the sake of curiosity.

 

If the community has an issue with the community cartographers, that's a problem. And the community can't do anything about it. There's no public voting, no election system, nothing. The system needs to be reworked. Most of the community doesn't even like their own mouthpiece to 343.

 

The fundamental problem here is that the Community Cartographers are not really working for the community. I wasn't involved in Halo 4 or MCC forge at all, so I don't know too much about how these guys were picked or their credentials apart from one or two of them. I understand that there could be some legal issues when it comes to being completely transparent, but lets not forget that @WARHOLIC said he wanted to "surprise" everyone with the announcement that 10-12 of the 2v2 maps would get put into matchmaking. Nothing against him personally since I do not know him, but that brings up a number of concerns about the way these guys operate:

1. If they had the community's best interest at heart, they would've put that information in the original 2v2 contest thread. In my opinion, you could've offered a $0 cash prize and gotten just as many submissions--if not more--than there are right now. That money could've been better spent elsewhere, especially when other forge websites have Forgehub beat in every area apart from having the Community Cartographers. They are a huge draw and probably a big reason why this site survived Halo 4 and MCC.
   
2. The Cartographers have defended and have been defended by others for all the wrong reasons. Withholding that information about the 2v2 contest in order to keep the number of entries "manageable" is certainly not thinking about the community first and yourselves second. I would rather you have 500 entries with that information known upfront and you guys having to slave through all those maps one by one. That would be truly working for the community. If you have a time limit, then you better be up all day and all night or figure out a way to eliminate the ones that shouldn't be considered. If there were 500 entries, I'm sure a good hundred could be eliminated for various reason from a quick fly through in Forge. You have the right to nitpick about requirements and standards set for matchmaking by 343i, not about how you share information with us. To me, wanting to "surprise" everyone is simply an excuse you have come up with to lessen the burden of testing the hundreds of maps that would've been submitted had that information been known. I am not the only one who would've dropped everything and forged a 2v2 map had I known a dozen maps would've been in matchmaking. That right there is unacceptable.
   
3. There is still an overwhelming amount of nepotism that needs to be resolved. If you're a cartographer, your map should have to go through the exact same process that everyone else has to go through. You shouldn't be withholding information to the masses and only telling a small group of people like what was done with the Breakout and BTB maps. I don't care if you have a time frame and you don't think people want to make breakout maps, that information needs to be made public. If 343i tells you that you cannot make that information public, you need to tell us that. You can use the NDA as an excuse and nobody will blame you for it. I've signed those things before and I am sure there is nothing special about the ones you got from 343i and Microsoft. Transparency seems to be the number one concern of the community, so you guys need to be as open as you possibly can.

I could go on and on, but I'll leave it at that because those are the basics. There are a million ways that you guys could be doing this better, and I can think of a few right now--but ultimately I am not a cartographer and you guys are. After 3 failed attempts to do the right thing for the community, you have yet to truly listen to our criticisms, so why should I expect you to listen to them now? If you care about the community and the people you are supposed to represent, you'd want to change your defensive attitudes and the way you are currently doing things. As @MultiLockOn has stated, I am one of the people who is disgusted by everything that has happened. It makes me feel like forging for even the slightest recognition is a big waste of my time.

 

Here is the best way to put this it is hard for people to support people when they have reason to not trust them completely. Honestly, I like talking to Fated. I have had a lot of good talks with him but he has given me a reason to distrust him. I really don't appreciate that. So, that in combination with the lack of transparency there has been lately has made myself and others have concerns. I would much rather everyone could get along but distrust makes that difficult.