Today I want to talk about forge maps and their textures. Lately, the majority of the forgehub community seems to oppose maps made entirely of metal pieces in The MCC. There is a strong belief that forge maps require contrast in order to look and perform better than maps made up entirely of metal, or concrete. I want to take a few minutes of your time to present not only my opinion, but general facts. Concrete Maps composed entirely out of concrete blocks aren't considered acceptable by most of the population of forgers I have encountered. Why? Because they are very boring to look at. Everything is 1 solid color/texture. Some claim it is hard to navigate throughout the map because everything looks the same. These are somewhat valid points. Metal Maps composed entirely out of metal seem to be even less acceptable, at least to the forgehub community. Most people who have seen metal maps outside of forgehub on places such as Mr. Pokephile's Youtube channel, have nothing but good things to say. That is evident through the comments left on the videos. Some claim that all metal maps are also boring to look at, or hard to navigate through. Some have even gone on to say their depth perception is thrown out of whack. Texture Differences Plain and simple, concrete only has 1 color. A light tan. Metal has 3 colors. A light grey, a dark grey, and brown. (There is no black.) Light grey on pieces such as (teleporter frames, doors, platform extra larges, etc.) Brown on pieces such as (walkway covers, inclines, bridges, etc.) Dark grey on pieces as accents, which can be found on most the items listed above, as well as most other metal pieces. In addition to the multiple colors, metal objects hold more texture to them. They have designs and shape built into them. Some pieces have pipes built into them. Some, like doors, have textures on the sides. These objects are more detailed, and provide a better use than smiple concerte blocks. Contrast It has become well believed that in order for a map to look good and play good, there has to be contrast. Most current forgers stand by this belief. However, they are only seeing contrast as black and white. (tan and dark grey) This is the biggest problem about piece usage today. I like to call it "The Great Contrast War" Metal, having more detailed pieces, and color options, makes it a fine choice to forge maps with. Many call metal maps "Black" which is not true. Especially since forgers who deal exclusively with metal make sure to have good piece theme. That would be light grey as the flooring, dark grey for inclines, and brown for walls. It is a clean, aesthetically pleasing, detailed way to create maps while maintaining contrast. Creativity It is arguable that only using metal pieces hurts creativity. This is absolutely not true. It requires you to use pieces in a different manner than what they are intended for, expanding your horizons, and drawing more creativity out of you. There is not much creativity in square blocks, especially for newer forgers who rely entirely too much on coordinate editing and magnets. History It is absolutely possible to make a great map with only concrete, or only metal, or a mixture of the two. Contrast has nothing to do with map design. In fact, let's take a look back at the history of maps throughout the franchise. Notice that every Halo game with forge so far has had simple colors and textures. Not only have custom maps always been simply colored and textured, but the player favorite map (Lockout) is an all metal map that has even less contrast than any forged metal map to date. I've presented my opinion as well as real facts that promote metal maps. I am in no way saying that non-metal maps are in any way inferior. It is simply a preference, and no map should be judged off contrast, because until the release of MCC, contrast has never been a topic, and has never needed to be. Especially since metal maps do in fact have contrast.
1. Just about every stone piece is a basic square/ rectangle. Those pieces have little practical use considering there's 50 pieces in the forge palette that match their purpose. Using new shapes expands your creativity. 2. Given didn't mention this, but the metal in this game meshes WAY better than any stone texture. 3. Depth perception argument against metal is completely ridiculous and shouldn't be taken seriously. 4. Maps don't need contrast for player orientation. These can be achieved other ways. See, Lockout/Haven etc. 5: Metal shows more skilled and creative forging. EDIT: I spy Noxi's H3 map :3
Metal forge maps can look really good if the forger pulls it off well. I really think it just depends on how you utilize you're pieces. Your map Behemoth is one of the best looking forge maps I've seen yet. I think thats a good example of metal used in the right way.
Great little write up. However, the problem isn't exactly contrast but depth created by contrast. Lockout has a great example of the depth because it's interior areas and walls are separated visually by the lights that make a more tan color. We do have lights of our own (that work well without issues) and dynamic lighting is stationary so we are left with 1 option to truly create depth in most areas are the object colors themselves. I would exclusively use blocks if this weren't the case. On the other hand, halo 2 truly suffered in this area, lots of areas in maps were too dark and the walls were also dark making the corners blend and sometimes even camouflaging a player. I'm not saying the maps were bad but comparing them to halo 2 is a bad example as they also suffer from the same issues in a lot of cases.
I don't understand the issue. Personally, I think that majority/totally metal maps look great. On Skyward, I can't understand why there would be a problem as the lighting is bright enough that the pieces naturally contrast. Probably not appropriate for Nebula, though. In the next few days I'll try and post a WIP map that is 90% metal, and I don't think that it suffers from lack of depth perception, though that may be bias.
There's legitimately no such thing as an issue with depth perception lol it's just something people say so they can argue against metal. If anything too many colors would ruin depth perception. You do you
@Blaze: I totally understand what you mean by the darkness and shadows, but like Frost just said, on skyward that isn't an issue at all. I admit forging an all metal map on nebula would be terrible, and on Awash, the first 10 seconds would be bad, but skyward is perfect. There aren't any lighting issues.
This is simply not true. Perhaps it's not an issue for you personally. That doesn't mean it's not a legit issue for other people (me, for example). Also, if it was ever interpreted as only being a concern on 'metal' maps, then that was a misinterpretation of what I said (since I'm assuming this is still stemming from the comment I made in a map thread from one of you guys, even though I subsequently stated that I did not end up having any such problems on the map when I actually played on it). Depth perception is a concern, and sometimes a very real issue (for me), on any map that's predominantly one color; this includes lockout and all of the other Dev maps that are primarily one color. If anything though, it's more problematic on 'cement' maps in H2A than it is on 'metal' maps. I've had issues on my own maps that made it necessary for me to create a mixture of lighter and darker textures. Feel free to say depth perception is not an issue for you. Feel free to say that depth perception is not a concern that's unique to all metal maps. Feel free to say that I shouldn't be expressing my concerns about something without first checking to see if it's legitimately a problem. Please though, don't try to suggest that I'm imagining things.
Givens last post right there ^ is more or less what I was getting at. I could see forging on nebula being bad for contrast, or the beginning of awash. And I could definitely see the dark metals used in excess being as bad as stone. I just think it's ridiculous how out of proportion it's all born. I didn't mean to come off blunt or dismissive towards your views and I certainly wasn't directing that comment at you. You actually seem like a great soft spoken guy, one of the few on this forum that I really like, and if my comment was overly blunt it's because I've heard so many overly dismissive sweeping comments like 'metal is bad for orientation and depth perception' too many times
Trust me, you aren't the root of this post. A few people complain about metal but never offer valid reasoning, so I decided to throw out the facts. I don't mean to at all bash on you if that is the vibe you got. I can understand if you have problems on all those maps, I have issues on maps like Monolith from halo 4, the colors are just too intense and there is just so much going on I cant see players the best. So I know where you're coming from.
No worries guys. I'm good with accepting opinions, but absolutes rustle my jimmies for some reason. I get where you're coming from.
I'm not sure how to begin here, so here are my views on different things. I come off as an ass during some parts, so I apologize in advance: "3 different textures with metal vs. boring tan concrete" The argument that pure-metal maps having 3 different textures means great contrast is a complete joke. No offense, this argument is getting you absolutely nowhere. If anything, they make pure-metal maps look worse. Not sure I remember the map ... Oasis? A beloved pure-metal map, the contrast that stuck out to me were the "palm tree" bushes that were green, not so much the light gray vs. brown or whatever. And I guess you guys completely omitted from your argument the fact that the majority of concrete pieces (blocks, namely) have color stripes that can be used (or not), whether black stripes are used or stripes to represent a colored area are used. The issue with the stripes is the abundance of color stripes that make maps look messy, or else the faded white that's nonoptional. Contrast: Black and white is popular for contrast, but there is more to it than that. For one, there are other textures like grass, rocks, and sand. But for two, something just as important when it comes to object use is uniformity/consistency - giving your map an aesthetic theme which lets parts of the map compliment each other. "It is arguable that only using metal pieces hurts creativity. This is absolutely not true. It requires you to use pieces in a different manner than what they are intended for, expanding your horizons, and drawing more creativity out of you. There is not much creativity in square blocks, especially for newer forgers who rely entirely too much on coordinate editing and magnets." You don't realize the common sense in the argument you're addressing: You are limiting your potential to build a good map because you are making it harder for yourself for no good reason (other than "drawing more creativity out of you"). It shouldn't matter how "creative" you were when making your map, it is all about your end product. Note: I am not saying all pure-metal maps are worse than all full-palette maps, but your ability to create a solid layout is very limited. TL;DR / My overall opinion: There's no reason to hate one or the other. Concrete needs other textures (such as Metal, Grass, and color stripes) to support it, and I completely oppose the idea that the metal textures all compliment each other. They look all too similar to me. Metal can thrive as its own central texture from what I've seen, but other things like trees, rocks, grass, etc. should support it in some way. You guys are shitting on the concrete pieces for no good reason. It's obvious they're easier to use, but that doesn't hinder the ability to be creative and carry out a unique aesthetic map; it just makes innovation harder because it's a more common thing. Metal is your preference, and there is nothing wrong with that. You guys gladly accept your limits.
We never **** on anything lol we were getting so many comments about how all metal is bad, when we just do it because it looks better. The only reason he even mentioned contrast is because everyone kept bringing it up. Having 3 different colors of metal is just his response to the assurtion that all metal means no contrast, when in reality itd be better than all stone. Honestly we don't think contrast is that big of a deal. I get what you're saying with the common sense thing. All we're saying is that it forces you to think creatively. Theoretically you could do infinitely more with the stone blocks but it doesn't really work out like that. Not trynna bash on anyone or their style. This is just my thought process.
First I'd like to say I am in no way trying to **** on concrete blocks. before MCC was even announced I was hoping we would get concrete blocks. I was just very dissapointed how they went about it. Like multi said above, metal objects blend together. concrete objects simply do not blend. If they blended together as well as they did on sandbox I would prob use them more. You can even tell on any block bigger than a 1x1 that the texture is repeated horribly. They also aren't colored correctly, at least in my opinion. for some reason they are tan instead of grey. Also the (colorable) stripe is really only good for determining a broad location on the map, not so much as you are moving through the map. You could use the same argument for any structure. (lift, window, tower, etc.) If that is me shitting all over concrete, then I guess I am. Again I just want to say, contrast has never been an issue before MCC. Contrast is not NEARLY as important as it is being made to be. I promise you, most maps being made with concrete or a mix of the two, could most likely be reforged to be entirely metal. It is not a way of restricting ourselves from making good maps. You just need to be able to see how to use those pieces in different ways. It is our choice because objects blend together much better, the textures are more interesting, and overall gives the map a solid feeling. It is much harder to forge with only metal pieces, but it is possible to achieve fantastic maps, limitless designs, and interesting piece usage. Forging metal structures isn't for everyone. I get that. and at the risk of being rude, "You gladly accept your limits."
Given and Multi, you two have become great friends I believe over the forging period in H2A and have found a common love in metal pieces. Which is cute, however nobody cares that you think maps made only out of metal pieces look the best. You like it? Fine, do it. Stop caring about what other people think that looks good. My opinion? Full metal maps look pretty cool, but a map with concrete and metal contrasts look better as it is easier to orientate on the map and it is easier on the eyes.
I feel like my ranting in the lolbox brought about this thread. Haha. I'm not gonna lie, the whole all metal thing is pretty cool. Props to you guys with the creativity, but I agree with Korlash that you are unnecessarily limiting yourselves. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all concrete is good either. I just feel there are more advantages to using concrete as your primary with metal as a secondary. Also, Sandbox was the sexiest canvas of all time.
Sandbox was a fantastic canvas Honestly to me, it's just fun to forge metal. And I like how it looks. That's just about the only reason I have for it lmao. I like stone maps too! Metal is just purty to me :3 you do you
Grass Planes Who cares what forgers think. I know no one else does. So just make whatever you want to make and if you don't get the attention you want just suck it up. Also, I don't think people here hate black pieces it is just you can literally only make two styles of map out of them. Maps involving mounds and maps that are room based and that is not a big deal it is just there are quite a few people here that are more in it for the design process rather than the forge process and I know that it was not like that here at forgehub in the past but this is the present.
I totally understand and appreciate everybodys comments. My original post was made because it seemed as though no matter what we were able to achieve by only using metal, or how unique the map was, whoever saw it would just say "Oh another metal map." and just sweep it under a rug. It was the most frustrating thing to put so much work into, to just have people dismiss it as "black" It's almost like map racism haha but seriously though, I totally understand orientation problems, but that goes for any new map. The more you play a map, the better it gets. No matter what it is. You learn to navigate, take shortcuts, jumps, etc. All i'm saying is Metal maps are equal to 50/50 maps, don't just say "another metal map..." or similar statements. Play, get a feel for it, before judging how to navigate through it, and orientate yourself. that's all I really want.