The boot wasn't accidental. If you're going to play with us, you need to actually play. Guys are relying on the lobby to get good tests of their maps and see how they play, so when one guy is goofing off the whole time (or just not playing - though the mongoose driving and honking is more annoying), it invalidates the test.
Terrible excuse. Next time, eat before/after playing with the lot of us. If you are incapable of playing the game, as Nutduster said, it invalidates the tests for those who come looking for good feedback. I don't mind having you back, but don't eat at the same time if it incapacitates you please.
Ok, now we're getting somewhere, before you didn't say the areas were problematic. I assume you're referring to the main alley way in front of red and the grass tunnel?
Ok, I got some people saying it couldn't run any smoother and others saying it was to confusing and poor. I can say one thing, it takes time to learn any layout if it doesn't consist of a circle or not just wide open with random structures everywhere and you shouldn't degrade a map due to you not learning the layout after 1-2 games. I played on my Curb Stomp map yesterday and I had a guy pooping on the map b/c he said the layout was to confusing his first go around (It's nothing but a circle with an alleyway cutting through, not very complicated). You also speak of dead ends and there isn't any. Here's an overview of the map. The top and bottom 'cranny's' are used for extraction locations and it's not like they lead you down this long road to where you have to stop and turn around. The map also follows the golden rule of level design by having 3+ entrances to areas. I also even placed arrows on walls to help guide you around the map but I'm sure you can overlook a lot during you first play through. This is a close replica of the classic 'CS-Dust' and probably the most famous FPS Map of FPS history. You say the gameplay lacked, any reasons why you think? I was expecting better and more feedback I could work with here.
Work's killing me today so I'm not going to get to doing full feedback for everybody (yet), but Hulk, I did want to comment on yours. First of all, definitely looked great, as usual. Second, I was the first to say the hogs felt a bit off. You can get kills with them but the driving is not comfortable, which is really what I want out of a vehicle map; the pathing should feel both obvious and generous, so drivers can have some fun and open it up a little bit. This might improve if I knew the map better, but I think the relatively narrow corridors (seemed like most paths were only 4 units wide?) and 90 degree turns, with a few "hard turns" (i.e. you can't go straight and can only turn one direction), made it far easier to navigate on foot than in a vehicle. That we were playing a DU gametype - i.e. no plasma pistols in loadouts - helped, but not enough. If it were me I'd scrap the 'hogs and try just smaller vehicles - mongooses and maybe ghosts, since ghosts have the best maneuverability and size combo in the game. (That's why ghosts work on some 4v4 maps that are otherwise vehicle-free.) Also on the subject of those corridors, parts of the map felt uncomfortably linear to me, and looking at the overhead now I can kind of see why. Now bear in mind I haven't played the map this was loosely based on and am not especially familiar with that game or its style of play. But in a Halo context, this felt in many places like a map where if you want to keep moving, you have to kill what's in front of you - every last enemy - or die trying. Many passageways don't offer a lot of cover except the natural bends of the walls, and not a lot of flanking routes or alternate methods of getting from place to place. So I felt like I was very often in a long tunnel just trying to outshoot whatever was at the other end of it, knowing that if I didn't, I wasn't going to have any way to get to the next extraction point. This isn't necessarily bad gameplay, but it felt limited to me - quite unlike, say, Curb Stomp or your freighter map, which both offer plentiful, fast means of outmaneuvering someone. I'm somebody who thrives on that kind of mental gamesmanship and is not especially great at just outshooting a guy in an open area, so I especially noticed it happening. It reminds me somewhat of Rat Race from Halo CE - long halls that you have to shoot your way through to get from one area to the next. Audience obviously had the same feeling about it so apparently it wasn't just me. Again though, lack of familiarity with the layout might have worked against me here - sometimes I felt like I knew where I wanted to go and could see no obvious way to get there except the tunnel right in front of me. If I were going to make suggestions based off just last night, I'd like to see at least some of the neutral corridors that link the two spawn areas widened - more rooms, less tunnels/corridors; and then also maybe another connection here and there between those paths so that you can outsmart people sometimes rather than outshoot them. A one-way connection or two might be interesting - e.g. a pair of one-way teleporters, an opening on to a balcony you can drop down from but not jump back up to, a drop-hole like the ones on Countdown, etc. Just a little something so that you can get out of some of those longer passageways in a manner other than going forward or back. One last thing - the red spawn room felt very isolated to me, like I was always pushing into it against an entire team staring right at me, and from the overhead it appears there are just two entrances located on the same wall. If that's accurate, maybe another point of entry on the north wall would help? That would then also join to one of the more long and linear paths down the middle of the map and might help with that issue simultaneously.
Awesome feedback Nutduster, thank you for taking the time to write that up. This is my first competitive map that is actually a remake of something and I'm trying to think Halo and not CS. What you said makes a lot of sense and I will have to think long and hard about configuring this layout and I may have to downsize it a bit. Thanks again. Videos coming later today, still uploading those mothers.
I don't just say it was confusing to figure out the layout cause it wasnt a square or circle. I usually learn quickly what's goin on with it, but it was probably the quick 90degree turns that threw me off. And I didn't know those were for extraction. If you are walking from red spawn to the northern extraction point and see a turn to the right you might expect to follow another path, which is what I thought. I loved that counter strike map, I can see the resemblence. The reason for gameplay to "lack" was just straight shooting down hallways most of the time. I know this is a common theme in counterstrike, I'm just talking in terms of halo though. Don't think that i'm just bashing on this map, cause I'm not. It just wasn't my favorite style of game play (which is usually different than most people on this website) I'm sorry, I thought you were the one that wanted to rebuild on a different canvas. You don't have to by any means. And don't let this stuff bring you down. It's just my opinion and with a few changes it will be a great map.
one thing to remember about older games like CS, is that level design wasn't as well hoaned as it is today. there have been so many millions of matches on different FPS's since the CS days that some of what you may want to copy, is actually not a good thing to copy or remake. But that doesn't mean you definitely shouldn't "go there". It could mean that you need to decide if you care more about it working perfectly with Halo, or want to stay totally true to the original as best you can. one of the things that stands out is the "3 ways into every room" rule. I'd not quite go so far as to say it's a hard and fast rule, but more of a really strong suggestion. There are times when it just isn't necessary, and other times when it is just not what you want to do. I played a very basic and horrible map recently (actually these guys might have invited you to play w/ us, I don't remember) where the map was one choke point connecting two spawning rooms. I originally thought it was horrible, but actually having to push through a choke point is kind of a challenge and not having ways to go around and flank the enemy at times can be a good diversion from all other maps. I think occasionally, at least, it may be okay to say "well, if your team can't push its way through this choke point, I guess you can't get to that point!" Certainly this shouldn't be the norm for maps. However, a little variation in flow doesn't hurt IMO.
Everything depends on context. Personally I get a little bored of MLG maps that are perfectly engineered to the nth degree to have four routes to every spot on the map, no overly-dominant power positions, not one camping spot, only limited chokepoints that are all perfectly balanced and vulnerable from some angles, etc. I actually find that bending the rules of "good" map design a bit can be a thing that takes a good-but-ordinary map and makes it memorable and exciting. But it's all in how you bend (and how much you bend) those rules - and also how closely your map follows the rules in other respects. Like they say among musicians, you have to know the rules to break them... meaning you can make all kinds of crazy experimental music, but it will have more impact if you've first learned, and are working from, a core of good fundamentals. Lots of the most-loved Halo maps have significant flaws. Damnation might be my favorite Halo map ever, or at least it's in the running, but it funnels all traffic between the two levels through exactly two tiny chokepoints, one of them an easily-camped teleporter. (Most remakes of it have attempted to combat this by adding a lift or two to make the top level more accessible, but even then, the design is still significantly imbalanced in that particular way.) Lockout is deceptively simple - it looks like a map where you can go anywhere and do anything, until you realize all traffic has to eventually either go across the deathtrap of top mid, or funnel through that small room directly underneath it (which is why Guardian added mancannons to open things up a bit). But I would argue such design choices contribute to making these maps so memorable; they'd honestly be less beloved if they were "better" designed. The thing is, those interesting, controversial decisions are surrounded by more conventional ones in terms of balance, access points, etc. And in good matches they don't dominate the gameplay - they just flavor it. In less well-made maps, that kind of thing can be absolute death. So you have to be careful, and just test, test, test to see if it works or if it doesn't.
STENCH I was quite depressed when I had to reshape my original design cause of lighting issues already /: There was so much more to it that yall didn't get to see. I'm not completely unsatisfied with the turn out though. I may put this on the back burner for a while and work on a new idea I have for forge island VANGUARD I thought this played CTF pretty well. There were some cool little routes. The TINY xl ramps that connect that pit to the front base was a bit awkward though. Just extend it out a little bit more maybe? SIGNAL 2 The area where red team spawned looked kinda weird with the rock coming through the floor. I also noticed that the mech had to crouch to get under one of the glass ceilings. It also seemed a tad big for our player count. Other than those things I thought it wasn't too bad. The layout seemed pretty cool. BLOCK 7 THIS was the one you wanted to remake...I think... I liked it other than the overuse of those box building room things. The big lift didn't seem to function very well either, but there were some cool things that I might steal from you
Fenix, I know I didnt give you a lot to take in, but I've been really busy these last few days and just havent spent the time to seriously consider the map with a high level of insight. I apologize for that, but know I'm not slacking, I'm simply busy elsewhere too. As I said, I'd be glad to look at it in forge with you, my feedback is always better in-game. As your your question, yes, I do believe that the area you mentioned was one of the problematic ones I noticed. The center tunnels and the grassy tunnel also felt the same way with too many people in it than it could handle. However, I really did enjoy the map, one of my favorites you have made thus far. Pick my brain in game if you'd like more, I've got to get back into things for a whole bunch of deadlines that run dry tomorrow.
well said, ND. "you gotta know the rules to break them" would apply to music like Jimi Hendrix for sure!
The needs to be a FPS Level design bible, I might make one down the road when I have around 20 years of experience. Anyways, I see where you are all coming from and I have a solid start I think to an epic layout. I want to incorporate Hogs (maybe Mantis) b/c i'm sick of infantry only battles and there haven't been many good maps lately that support vehicle gameplay. I want vehicles damnit! This layout can become a lot better if I rethink it over and draw out a layout sketch for you guys to critique. I want to open up areas for the hogs and still apply small conjested alleyways and tunnels. I will make corridors/halls shorter or be more involved with other routes and add more infantry routes through the center building. The choke points is what made this map so popular in CS and I think if I base this map off the same choke points but better support halo gameplay throughout like mentioned above will be the way to go. I'm probably going to purchase this book as will benefit me and my career. The more knowledge the better and this looks pretty promising.
I will try to find time to eat beforehand, but my schedule was pretty tight. I just got back from the gym, and I almost immediately turned on my Xbox 360 and tried to cure my insatiable hunger simultaneously. I know it is not a good excuse, and I will try to be more efficient next lobby.
Gamertag: Robius5991 Map name: Purgatory Gametype: Hunter - but matchmaking flood and Insanmiac's Manhunt also work. Description: This map is a re-imagination of Crysis 3's Airport map, modified to work well in Halo 4. The gametype is also a imitation of the Crysis 3 Hunter mode. Originally, this was made for the "Meet your Maker" contest, but has since been adapted for flood gameplay. Tested: Yes Finished: Yes For additional screenshots and a basic overview of the map, you can check out the map preview released on HaloCustoms. The map will be fully released soon, but for now the preview works well enough for showing off the map.
My main suggestions for your conceptual redesign, Fenix, is to make driving paths wider, make some paths a bit less jarring (such as that one over by the red exit to grassy tunnel) and add a bit more cover. I found myself moving nicely and strategically, but it was a task to find something to get behind once I committed to a corridor. My last suggestion is a more open central room. That was just a grenade trap and a terrible place to be (despite the advantages of quick movement cross-map and the extremely fun time I had throwing grenades in!)
I agree with you except on the middle hall, that's suppose to be the most vicious choke point on the map and be a risk/reward taking that route.