The "Press Button for Rocket Launcher" Mentality

You guys are disappearing up your own butts in here. I can barely see you.

Hulk - I think you're thinking too hard about this. (Actually both of you are, but never mind.) Pro is just shorthand for professional, as we all know. Professional is rooted in the word profession, which gives it away: it's what you do for a living. It's not any more complicated than that. If it has somehow come to be understood otherwise, it's just through repeated misuse or slang appropriations, like calling someone professional simply because they're good at something; that kind of usage only makes sense to us because their amateur, unpaid work is being compared to the work of paid professionals, which should be reliably good and a cut above.

 

EDIT: Just FYI, this is a quote from Sundance himself upon partnering with Kespa:

So yeah. When the CEO of MLG himself recognises how much more significant Korean eSports is, how much sense does your position make exactly? Source.

Another quote, from another article:

It's pretty obvious from that, and the rest of the article, the he acknowledges how they currently are lightyears ahead.

Seriously dude, you're fighting a lost cause here when even the CEO of MLG doesn't agree with you. He may want you to be right, but that doesn't mean you are.

I felt this deserved to go at the top, the rest of my post before this edit follows below.

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You say that MLG made pro gaming known. That's just not the case. Sorry, but it isn't. Korean starcraft was known worldwide since BW. It wasn't as big in the US or EU, obviously. But do you honestly think anyone in the far east knew anything about MLG before it picked up Starcraft? If so you're deluding yourself. MLG gained worldwide notoriety during mid Halo 3 in 2009. And even then it was still dwarfed by worldwide appreciation of starcraft. Fatal1ty was a known figure worldwide for ages (notice how he participated in gaming leagues). You're just ignoring the facts here. Sorry to be harsh, but you are. It sounds like you're saying "people I know in the US hadn't heard of pro gaming until MLG, so that means it brought it to the forefront."

I don't really know what else to say here, because you seem content to ignore and even outright deny the history that pro gaming had before MLG. Even then, you talk about MLG like it's been popular since it started. That's not even close to the case. It was barely known in CE. It gained popularity within Halo 2 for sure, but pretty much only within the existing Halo community and even then it didn't hit actual social significance until late '08/ early '09 seasons.

You even freely admit that Korea had a league for ages before MLG even existed, but brush it off cause that specific one doesn't exist anymore. Despite the fact that what we're talking about here is the first instance of what can be called "pro gaming." The fact that it's not around anymore is irrelevant. It brought it to the fore and defined an entire nation. How is that more significant than MLG which hasn't even gained as much mainstream significance within the US (hasn't hit TV, doesn't attract the same audiences), let alone the rest of the world? Korean has had some form of starcraft league for longer, and outstrips MLG in literally every single possible metric. Korean starcraft outstrips MLG in literally every possible way, including how long it's been around and how long it's been nationally and internationally significant.

People were travelling from the rest of the world to Korea to compete in their starcraft leagues before the reverse was true. And they got stomped on by and large, with Idra being a rare exception. When the Koreans came over here for MLG events (which was AFTER people started going there), they dominated. Surprise goddamn surprise.

Do you know why MLG took off so much after it picked up SC2, to the point where it abandoned Halo? Because it suddenly entered in to a huge eSports ecosystem which oustripped what it had done on its own massively. Literally the second MLG event with starcraft, the SC2 crowd outmatched the Halo one in both size and volume. This is because they suddenly had access to a huge, existing audience who didn't give a damn about Halo, and didn't give a damn about MLG before they picked up SC2. The community was there, and it was huge, even in the US despite the fact that they were following a sport in another country. NA starcraft was bigger than MLG in terms of audience size without even having anything going on in the actual country. The fact that you see MLG as the most significant example of eSports is genuinely baffling to me.

How is MLG worldwide, exactly? They only hold events in the US (apart from like one in Canada, big whoop). Korean Starcraft hold events in Korea. MLG is no more world wide than Korean starcraft. The only reason you get more Koreans at MLG than you do americans in Korean starcraft is because the quality is play is lower in MLG, so it's easier for them to come over and place well, whereas when US players try to make it over there (which DOES HAPPEN) they can't compete by and large. The level of competition is higher, the league is more established.

Holding more games doesn't make it more professional, I don't see how that's logical at all. That's like saying that the NBA only plays one sport, therefore it's less professional than MLG. Just what?

That still doesn't explain why your definition of it is more important than anyone else's. You didn't bring up the idea of "pro." WWWilliam did by saying that games should be balanced with them in mind. Then you waltz in and say that, unless you're a part of MLG, you're not a pro, therefore his point doesn't apply.

And no, you're not right, hence me taking all this time to explain the various reasons that you're not right. Yet you just assume that anyone who disagrees with you knows you're right but can't admit it. You know, for someone who complains about people being rude or aggressive at nearly every turn, just for speaking in strong terms against your arguments and not even you directly, you're pretty rude and pompous yourself.

 

And yet barely anyone knows about them... hmmm? I told you on my last post that they were ahead of MLG, I just stated MLG has more widely known.

Kind on contradicted yourself there b/c you do agree with me. Korean Starcarft was only know in the US and EU by hardcore stracraft players, that's it (even today that is mostly the case). MLG (in the US and EU) is known by people who don't even play video games. I rest my case.

So you only brought one small thing. All that speech you just made there was only about how I used it in one sentence. Saying you would get laughed at by most people (atleast here in the US) if you said you were a pro gamer prior to Halo: CE. Because you would and it's been said and laughed many times already. One sentence... you took so literally, and yet didn't even defend your case properly in the way I used it.

Glad you finally noticed you were off-base.

Anyone would of guessed that. You're point?

A bunch of useless info I don't care to read b/c you're way off base here.

Because they welcome players from across the globe, just like in Korea, but the make different leagues per country. During tournaments they have the best from each league compete. MLG is also trying to make their ways to other countries, but I assume funding just isn't there right now. They have talked about it before.

MLG Raleigh 2012 Confirmed + MLG EU Events? | Decerto - Gaming +

MLG is Major League Gaming. (Not just Starcraft)
NBA is Basketball.

Your answer is in the name. I never said it made it more professional, just used that refernce as it was bigger in size, and again, taking something completely the wrong way and bringing up something so off-base.

I didn't just walk up in here, I was the third person to post a response in this thread, thank you. And please, a permalink would be nice to any quote you're referring to and you'll probably go way off base of what I said or meant as you have been doing here.

How am I rude? quotes please. I have not thrown any insults out there. Are you just upset because I said something, then you wrote a book about one sentence I said and upset b/c I don't agree with you?

 

Prove this. This isn't true. Sundance appreciates that it isn't true, and the audience he's tapping in to with this partnership. I've directly undermined your assertion by explicitly demonstrating that even MLG themselves appreciate that it isn't true. You seem to hold this view with the vehemence of a religion, flying in the face of every single piece of contrary information and perspective I present.

The idea that MLG is more significant world wide in terms of Halo alone (which, again, is the premise of this discussion) is even more ridiculous.

You rest your case based on a ridiculous assertion with absolutely no facts to back it up? Whichever law school you attended didn't do a very good job.... Why do you keep talking as if people in the US knowing about it is some how more important? Damn never EVERYONE in Korea is at least aware of pro starcraft and what it is, whether they game or not. A small proportion of non gamers in the US are aware of MLG and what it is. Let that sink in for a second.

Whether non gamers in the US were aware of Starcraft is as negligible as the amount of non gamers in Korea that knew about MLG. You keep saying "world wide" when what you really mean is "people in America (and the EU to a lesser extent)."

Korean SC2 was known by non gamers, just like MLG is known by non gamers, moreso of each in their respective countries, but still seeing MUCH greater non gamer awareness overall for Korean SC2. Where are you getting this impression that huge numbers of non gamers in the US are aware of MLG?

My point was that the audience for SC2 in America was bigger than MLG's entire audience with Halo, even though the former had no actual competition in their country prior to this. This is explicitly demonstrated by the MASSIVE jumps in attendance that MLG events saw after adding SC2. Passes were selling out right off the bat, and MLG success in general has skyrocketed since it picked up SC2 and then LoL. This is because they tapped in to markets much bigger than the one they'd created. These markets are people who knew about pro SC2 in the US before MLG even touched it.

The wonderful thing is that the pro sports in America example is also applicable here. You say that MLG is the only real pro gaming league because it's internationa (despite the fact that it ISNT international)l? Compare that to all the major US sports which are much more specific to the US than Starcraft is to Korea. Therefore, by your logic, there's no such thing as professional American Football. No such thing as professional Baseball. They're not international, are they? Doesn't count, right? Or does "international" for you mean "known in the US"?

Apart from that's not what you said. Oh but I forget, whether people in the US know about something is the only important factor, right? And everyone and their dog in the US knows about MLG, right?

How so? I'm accepting your ridiculous premise and proving that, even accepting, you're still wrong.

That Korean Starcraft is both better known and better respected than any US eSport, let alone MLG Halo.

Have you been practicing your debating with 5 year olds? "I'll just ignore what I can't argue against."

Oh, I'm off base here. I guess you put me in my place. Consider this argument over. Hooweee, you sure proved me wrong!

They promised they'd come to the EU. They never followed through. They promised they'd expand to Asia. Never came through. Saying you'll do something isn't the same as doing it. What do you mean "different leagues per country"?

Holding more games =/= bigger in size. Maybe you should actually say what you mean, then, hmmm? MLG is not bigger in size simply by dint of holding more games.

And what's important here is the distinction between MLG and MLG Halo. You're basing all of this off the idea that MLG Halo specifically defined what can be called a "pro gamer." MLG's Halo only viewership was pitiful. It only did well once it picked up SC2 and LoL, so how all this relates to pro Halo is absolutely lost on me. MLG didn't even touch SC2 until 2010. It didn't see the success you're talking about until 2011. Are you honestly, genuinely telling me that no one could reasonably refer to pro gaming before 2011? Everything they did before then was smaller. Your whole argument rests on this idea that "non gamers knew about MLG Halo." Can you really tell me where you're getting this idea that MLG Halo was this well known in wider society? Or are you just going to keep saying it over and over and hoping I start believing you?

Says the guy who uses grey colours to denote my quotes rather than actual quotes half the time? Replying to your posts is awkward because of this, but I'm soooooooo sorry for making your life harder by assuming you can remember things you yourself said.

My point was that WWWilliam started off the discussion of whether pro level play is important in balancing, so why does YOUR definition of pro gamer take precedence?

You're smug and condescending. That qualifies as rude as much as anything you criticised me for. I'm perfectly aware that this happens in discussion, my point was simply that you shouldn't act like you're being laid in to or victimized when you're employing the exact same rhetorical tendencies. I realise that these things are just a matter of course, I only bring it up to make the point that you should stop acting like a wounded puppy everytime someone makes a strongly worded point.

It's not that you don't agree with me. It's that you assume that, just because I disagree with you, I must know you're right and just be unable to admit it. Seriously, do you even read stuff before you respond to it? I explained this perfectly clearly in the part of the post that you quoted, yet you still need me to explain it again?

 

That was all in the same post, he was referring before that post, b/c at the time, that post didn't exist (and his rude comments have made me stop caring).

As far as Pegasi, damn your a rude dude. I'll get back to you on all that meaningless crap some other time, b/c I still strongly disagree with your opinions. Pegasi, you took something I said, like "Halo 4 should not be designed around MLG," and "it shouldn't be balanced for pros" to this level. I guess I'll need to post a atleast 2-3 references to any opinion I give when you're around. I'm done with being insulted.

 

Don't worry, I'm done. I'ma go convince the new pope that God doesn't exist. Should be a breeze compared to this.

 

Guys, I appreciate a good spirited debate and all, but let's keep it civil and respect each other's right to have opinions (even ones you think are crazy). Nobody's stepped over the line here but you're all skirting ever closer to it.

I'd prefer in-depth discussion threads to not get locked or result in warnings or infractions. The board needs these kinds of conversations. It attracts smart members, and we all learn from it. But at the same time, everybody needs to stop taking things personally and getting so heated over what in this case literally boils down to semantics. If you find yourself engaged in a tangential argument over who is being more rude, you're already headed in the wrong direction.

 

Well "Halo 4 should not be designed around MLG" is what I believe so I don't know why are where against my POV.

Though I didn't see any mention of MLG in reference to my posts/point only the word "Pro" so you can see how someone could misinterpret when you use "Pro" and "1%" to mean "Pro" and "MLG" interchangeably.

Either it means:
Why design a game focused around MLG, when 99% is where the money is at? MLG and standard gameplay are different and would play different. They should just have a seperate playlist for MLG. (Which is what why MLG playlist exists and what it does and is the entire point of it, and I don't get the point of stating something so obvious, And irrelevant to the point: Games should be designed Pros (not MLG, Pro's!)
Or
Why design a game focused around Pro's, when 99% is where the money is at? Pro and standard gameplay are different and would play different. They should just have a seperate playlist for Pro's. (Which is a valid opinion, But contradicts your statement: Pegasi, you took something I said, like "Halo 4 should not be designed around MLG," and "it shouldn't be balanced for pros" to this level. Either it should be balanced for pro's(not MLG) or it shouldn't be balanced for pro's?

 

Don't worry Pegasi you're like +10 whereas Fenix Hulk is like -5.

 

What do you mean "count sprint usage"?

 

Halo will and will always be designed around the main 4v4 playlist and BTB. You can have w/e opinions you want but that's what the bulk of Halo multiplayer is and that's where most players will play. They like how everyone in BTB isn't trying their hardest. Many people that enjoy Halo casually don't want "Pro" settings and don't want people taking the game so seriously. They enjoy blowing up a fully loaded warthog without much skill involved. They enjoy the chaos, they like that they can win a game with no real team work involved. BTB will always be on top. There's nothing wrong with having pro settings and a playlist, but most people enjoy the more casual part of halo.

The only thing they need to fix about BTB is reduce the amount of power weapons, take out the Plasma Pistol out of initial ordinance, and better the BTB maps. Ragnarok is a beautiful map but the layout is flawed for Halo 4.

 

Well you sure as hell wouldn't need to do that to convince me . I wonder how convincing pro sprint people would find it tbh, since as me and Fenix seemed to eventually agree it's all about perspective. To someone who doesn't consider escaping that much of a downside and any instance of faster pushing to be a big upside, a few instances of the latter can arguably outweigh many instances of the former. I'm not sure how valuable it'd be as artillery in this debate.

 

Where do you guys find the time to write all this stuff?!
You guys are taking this far.. Really far.

 

Who can find the time to even read all this stuff.

From the bits I skimmed (couldn't stand to read all the whining especially the poorly written parts) everyone's just complaining that not everyone wants to play the game the same way, and the game is not designed specifically to suit the way they want to play while previous games were more suited to their tastes. To this I say...

 

To me it looks like this thread merely has become a discussion between Pegasi and Hulk. Pegasi and Hulk read each comments, and they respond to each other, right? And we interrupt sometimes.

Do not get me wrong, I respect the both of you very much (Same with everyone else here) but this discussion is getting a little to big. And far off topic.