The "Press Button for Rocket Launcher" Mentality

Indeed. A huge assumption.

I know the point with MLG was that KC made the decision. I'm just saying that the issue that the guy was criticizing only arose because, as we know, there can be strongly differing opinions on whether creators made the "right" choice when it comes to including things like sprint. Also, having it as a default in the game sets up people's expectations to a degree, and you have to think long and hard about removing it and probably putting a lot of people off. This was one of the discussions that went around a lot when the sprint argument first arose with respect to MLG gametypes.

Fair point on your 30% argument, though. I didn't realise you were talking about creators at that point. I still think that's a lowball number, but your point makes more sense.

Spin: I get what you're saying and appreciate your openness to discussion in this thread, but is sprint really off topic? Your OP specifically mentioned it, and with reference to competitive value as well.

 

Exsactly, If you believe the assumption and use it as a hypothetical situation it proves my point.

Then any other errors come from human error and making bad gametypes/maps which can be done in any game. (Which aren't a inherent problem like Forced sprint in Halo 4 and unlike the choice to use sprint in a gametype IF you want to which makes the distinction that Reach's sprint mechanics are better for maps and gametype creators (including Bungie/343i)

 

Fancy quote there. You're the one that's trying to shut me down by comments like these. You even did something similar to another member in this same thread when he was obviously supplying his argument with well thought out statements instead of vague hypothetical situations are aboslute statements like "Halo 4 was no designed to play remakes well."

You have yet to provide any solid reasoning for your commitment to sprint.

Don't try and say I'm in a "cult" because that's just a dirty way of trying to win an argument. It's the oldest trick in politics, if you can't win the argument then make your opponent look bad. Knock it off.

Irrelevant to the topic. What does this have to do with sprint? Also, you can't claim that the tac jumps were not intentional. How would you even know this?

I'm sick of remakes too (Simplex and Shutout) but I used Shutout S a good example of the influence that Sprint has taken on map design.

Please show me your reference or proof to sprinting in Halo 2.*

I'm deriving it from common sense. Sprint is used to run faster so naturally it will be used for running away. How can you not see this? Sprinting gives an advantage over players who are wielding their weapons so naturally it is defensive and or passive.

Sprinting was nevet a apart of Halo until it was in Reach. How can you say sprinting and other abilities were a part of Halo WHEN THEY NEVER WERE? Equipment was implemented in Halo 3 but every game before Reach had players spawning equal terms. Same player speed, same jump height, same weapons, same everything. This is what defines an arena gametype and Halo veered from that in Reach with the implementation of different starting abilities and loadouts.

Just to play devil's advocate Halo 4 has THE SLOWEST killtimes in the game compared to previous titles. I could link to to very in depth threads about kill times over at Halo Council but you have clearly stated that you don't care about what anyone has to say over there, regardless of what they are saying.*

You are getting backed into a corner Fenix Hulk, and the only thing you have done in this thread against other people who have sound arguments and logical claims are to insult them and make them look bad. You've done to someone else and now you're doing it to me.

Man up and make some legitimate claims. I'm not insulting you, belittling you, offending you nor am I trying to make you look bad, so stop trying to do it to me.

 

Wait, is that compared to ZB Reach DMR? I wouldn't even need to see numbers to feel confident that vanilla Reach's DMR kills slower than Halo 4s. Hell, I think even the 85% DMR kills slower than Halo 4's.

 

I'm not in any corner and you to sir, have not backed up your opinions with any facts. I was insulted and belittled b/c I chose to defend sprint and now you're doing the same. I'm allowed to defend my opinion and not get shut down by one who follows others' opinions like you do (I say that because you posted a link to a thread that supported your opinion, lame). If you don't like my opinion, tough. Here's the facts since you want to be rude.

BTW thanks for wasting my time b/c you don't have your facts straight and want to call me out on it.

I can't find scan copies of the OXM but I did buy the mag personally back in 2004. If you look hard enough you can find readings about sprint being added into Halo 2 but it was cut last second as with a lot of things they wanted to add - due to meeting the deadline.

Bungie.net : Halo 2 Forum : Sprint! (look at dates posted)

Video Games Daily | Xbox Preview: Halo 2 "For one, he can sprint instead of walking at the speed of a turtle on crutches." This info was pulled directly from the Halo 2 article OXM released.

 

It also says this in that link you posted.

Why don't YOU get your facts straight? There obviously was no sprint, or peeking around corners in H2 so this little bit didn't prove (or disprove) anything. You wasted your own time.

You are still continuing to try and make me look bad since you had nothing substantial to support your commitment to sprint, whereas I do. I may AGREE with other's opinions but you are still being passive aggressive by saying that I "follows others' opinions." Again, you are trying to discredit me to prove your point rather than actually playing fair.

Yes, you are allowed to express your opinion and if you just want to draw the line at "I like sprint and you don't" then that's fine with me. Seems like you are just delaying the inevitable so we might as well just stop here.

I stand by my OPINION that I think sprint hinders competitive gameplay. I still enjoy gametypes with sprint though, like Goldpro or v2, but no sprint with a high base player speed brings Halo back to it's arena roots.

Sprint is mostly used for running away. You can claim what you what about flanking but you can still flank players without sprint.

 

Would love to see a BTB BRs Classic gametype to vote for in matchmaking. I just want to play BTB with DMRs disabled so there is more freedom to move around the maps. Well, Ragnarock would play much better and so would Exile.

 

Why don't YOU get your facts straight? There obviously was no sprint, or peeking around corners in H2 so this little bit didn't prove (or disprove) anything. You wasted your own time.

I do have my facts straight. If I must go and dig for OXM's article I will. They were not allowed to release any information that Bungie was keeping a secret and they had a very reliable source inside Bungie that stated these were things Bungie was considering (they covered there own ass by stating they were "rumors" or unreliable sources). Waste your own time and go learn all the elements that was originally going to be included in Halo: CE that would of been considered not competitive in nature. When Bungie was considering adding sprint, it was from the campaign viewpoint and not multiplayer.

You are still continuing to try and make me look bad since you had nothing substantial to support your commitment to sprint, whereas I do. I may AGREE with other's opinions but you are still being passive aggressive by saying that I "follows others' opinions." Again, you are trying to discredit me to prove your point rather than actually playing fair.

I'm not trying to make you look bad, it's quite the opposite. I have no problem with you or anyone here hating sprint. I expressed my opinion about sprint, stating "I disagree" and I was attacked for having a different opinion than others. Instead of people stating their own opinion against mine, they directly attacked mine by saying everything I said was wrong. It's an opinion and no one is right or wrong but people are allowed to agree/disagree. I used the unoriginal quote, "opinions are like..." b/c it seems like every asshole that has an opinion thinks theirs is the only one that counts.

Yes, you are allowed to express your opinion and if you just want to draw the line at "I like sprint and you don't" then that's fine with me. Seems like you are just delaying the inevitable so we might as well just stop here.

Glad you finally let me have an opinion but delaying what inevitable? The fact that you can find more people that hate sprint over like it. Cool! I'm still allowed to like sprint and state I think it belongs in halo. That's an opinion and I can have one. I was simply defending my opinion. Even Overdoin (w/e name) had to insult me with a grammar correction and I "fought fire with fire" by attacking his grammar. Then of course Spin directly looked at me as I'm the one insulting people here probably b/c I have a different opinion. That's cool, this thread has basically came down to, "Agree with us or **** you."

I stand by my OPINION that I think sprint hinders competitive gameplay. I still enjoy gametypes with sprint though, like Goldpro or v2, but no sprint with a high base player speed brings Halo back to it's arena roots.

Well that's cool. Nothing wrong with that. 343 is trying to change things up if you haven't noticed and it's pissing alot of people off, including you. I'm down for change, it's okay to step outside your comfort zone every now and then.

Sprint is mostly used for running away. You can claim what you what about flanking but you can still flank players without sprint.

That's your opinion and I highly disagree. I see most players using it to get back in the fight quicker and for flanking and catching the enemy off guard. This is more noticeable in Infinity Slayer and BTB (where the money is at, look at the population of the servers for your facts). And yeah, I will claim that. They also use it heavily get across "danger areas" faster such as a wide open space vulnerable to sniper fire and enemy vehicles. It gives the player a better chance at survival (running away or moving across danger areas quickly) along with adding to the combat effectiveness (chasing down an enemy, flanking the enemy, and getting your team mates back into the fight quicker). I don't care about MLG, Halo wasn't designed for gay MLG. And MLG being gay is my opinion.

- - -

Edit: People need to stop comparing everything to MLG. Halo's money is in 4v4 and BTB Slayer. Probably 95% of halo followers could care less about MLG (I say that because BTB is the most popular server and that's about "un-MLG" as you can get). Right now BTB is broken and sprint is not the problem.

The main flaws I see:

- To many power weapons
- Horrible BTB maps (long LoS) making players not want to move around because they will get picked off by DMR/LR (without sprint it would be even worse)
- Allowing Plasma Pistol to be a loadout weapon making vehicles next to useless to advance into enemy territory knowing the enemy team will "emp" you or just blow you to **** with pretty much a constant supply of rockets, lasers, etc. (again halting movement) BTB was fun before because of how effective vehicles were and halo grew it's popularity quick by how well vehicles were used in multiplayer (Blood Gulch being the most popular original map because of the large open space and the incorporation of vehicles with infantry). Now not so much and the game is nothing special because of that.
-No objective BTB modes...

 

My first post (and visit to the site) in a while. I've typed this before, H4 BRs are precise from the valhalla laser spawn to the caves, and the distance from either side cannon landing mountain-rocks to the turret rocks is too long to allow you to sprint through BR fire. (I chose these places on valhalla because the laser spawn gives the longest lines of sight and is always held, and beyond these four inner corners (caves, mountain rocks) players can easily travel without exposing themselves long enough to die from laser hill fire.) In other words, if you want to get from piece of cover to piece of cover, you'll usually need make sure that they aren't able to fire at you, whether they have a DMR or BR- the rifle kill times are not that different at the most common ranges. Same goes for exile. Don't plan on making it barely, surviving by one shot or a few tenths of a second. I'm not saying that this won't happen a few times every game if you sprint like that, but it won't happen enough to make Ragnarok or Exile play much better.

 

Now we're getting somewhere. We both disagree with each other's opinions, and that's fine. Thanks for acknowledging that.

I just felt that you made the first aggressive move towards me, so I reciprocated that. It doesn't matter anymore.

Sprint does give a better chance at survival. This is obviously true because it's used to run away and for the other things you have stated. In my opinion, I don't like sprint BECAUSE it keeps players alive when they were outclassed by better players or teams. You don't need to rely on player skill or teamwork as much as you need to in previous titles because you have so many crutches to fall back on such as Sprint and AA's.

I don't like MLG either. I only like the competitive gametypes that they encourage, except for the current v2 gametypes (BR starts.) I like Halo to be stripped down to it's roots; gun, grenades and melee. That's how Halo 1-3 was and that's how I personally like it.

How is any of this relevant to the sprint argument? And what does sprint have to do with MLG?

I didn't compare anything to MLG. I did with a comment earlier that wasn't directed at you but whatever.

Again, I like MLG Gametypes because of it's stripped down competitive nature. I don't agree with every single thing they support, like the lack of weapon variety, but it's a good base gametype especially when compared to Team Action Sack (Infinity Slayer).

Great points here I think that we can all agree on. Power weapons in PO's, Plasma Pistols in loadouts lead to exploitative gameplay. It's only popular because you can call down Rockets from the ****ing sky. It's ridiculous.

BUT, these is still irrelevant to the sprint debate but if you want to move on from that then that's good. We've taken up a few pages so far.

 

Here's a question for you though... you're in 2v2 game, you and you're teammate are engaging the other team. You kill one guy, and the other guy escapes to cover just before death with the use of sprint.

Now, how does this relate to player skill or lack of teamwork b/c he simply evaded instead of being a "clean-up" kill? It doesn't change how effective his BR is or how true his aim is. It doesn't take away or add to team work. Sprint simply gave him a better chance of surviving. It's not like you just loss the game because he ran away. You can run just as fast and should already be knowing his movements before they happen if you're better than he is.

Please give me some scenario's here that provide detail to why you don't like sprint.

Due note though that Halo has always been about surviving firefights and not "I see you first so you're dead" style that is CoD.

 

Easy. I don't like it because he used Sprint to run away. This is a perfect example of what I've been saying all along. It slows the game down because he ran away from the fight. The idea is to encourage players into combat scenarios but at the same time Sprint also encourages players AWAY from combat scenarios.

Also, I can't chase him and shoot him at the same time. I am wielding my weapon and moving at a base speed whereas he is not wielding his weapon and moving at a higher speed.

I can't shoot and sprint at the same time, so naturally he will use it defensively, as you have described to slow the game down.

I never said that sprint affects player skill. I never said that, ever. It doesn't. It's just an unnecessary option.

This is your opinion. This is not a fact.

CoD is "icufirst so die" but Halo is not necessarily about surviving firefights.

 

Fenix, how can you not appreciate the difference a kill can make? Even then, you describe one single encounter. What if that happens multiple times a game?

You keep accepting that sprint can help people live in these situations, but refuse to accept that it'll ever affect the outcome of games. You say we can run as fast as him, but we can't shoot whilst doing so which essential to actually make kills.

Why do you keep saying that halo has always been about avoiding battles? That's just not the case. Your distinction between halo and cod in this regard is really simplistic. Its about kill time variance.

Cod kill times are always fast. Halo kill times are generally longer, but A) require accuracy for the quickest kill times and B) can vary wildly depending on this accuracy. This allows players to come back from shots down so it isn't just "I saw you first" even without sprint. Sprint isn't about being able to turn battles around, its about being able to avoid or escape them. That's not what halo has been about, and if it were, why would it need or benefit from the addition of sprint when its "always" been this way?

 

Ok, let's take a step back to Halo: CE. Prior to this game hitting the xbox, the strong FPS games were Ghost Recon and Rainbow Six. These games were the same as CoD in relations to gameplay. I see you first, you're dead. These games were a camp fest and the camper hater trend started as camping didn't require skill.

Then Halo: CE hit with the introduction of shields with pretty much the same base player health once shields were depleted. The shield gave a player a chance to escape the "I see u first now die" style situations. Now it was no longer hating campers, it was hating "Kill stealers." The new style of health system allowed players to take cover after being fired upon. It also introduced a lot more movement and player skill by having to shoot at a player shooting back at you. Dodging and footwork had to be learned that was previously unrealistic in GR or RS.

Now let's take a step back, way back to Quake and Unreal. These games had insane amounts of health with insane weapons and movement was fast, real fast. These games are a true measure of player skill and how well you can shoot and move. If you have better aim and better movement skills you usually win most of your battles. But also with great movement came much "running away." And no I don't know where I am going here with this but I'm going to just keep talking. lol

Anyways, Halo gave the option to think about a situation when fired upon and shields provided options instead of you just dying b/c you were shot at first.

I have players run away from me all the time. It's nothing new to a FPS. Yes, it's irritating but I don't blame any losses on my enemy running away.

It' a 1v1 game now. Ok, so he runs away after I depleted his shields. I chase him but his sprint gives him time for shields to recharge. Then we engage again and I choose to fight to the death and I die. Again and again this happens. Does this happen b/c of sprint or does this happen b/c I refuse to run away in the same situation? He uses this tactic to his advantage, I don't. Who's fault is it?

In my opinion, sprint offers to many more helpful options than negative ones. You may hate players running away, but there are many players out there that I'm sure enjoy having the option when they need it. It's very easy to fix this. It's simple, the more depleted your shields/health are, the slower you run or sprint can be disabled if close to death. BAM! that's your fix.

Edit: Since sprint would cause exhaustion, you could also add in poor accuracy for a short time after a full sprint.These ideas are realistic and competitive in nature. I don't see a problem with sprint, but they should balance it out a bit more.

 

And again, its not the speed, its the nature of the mechanic. If everyone moved at sprint speed the whole time it'd just be like quake.

The issue is that, to move fast, you have to give up your ability to shoot. This gives "running away" a whole new level of game slowing problems.

BTW, CE kill times were like 1s with a 3sk. Its kinda a different ballgame even compared to other halos. What's important about CE is that neither player speed nor the shield mechanic favoured running away over engaging the attacking player, leaving this balance up to strategy. This made the game a balance between engaging and cover when shot first.

Sprint, however, makes running away by far the more sustainable option since its so heavily weighted towards it.

The fundamental issue is how it affects this balance of strategy, skewing it heavily towards escape and avoiding battles in terms of basic movement mechanics.

[br][/br]

---

Edited by merge:

---

Seriously, watch competitive CE and tell me it was about avoiding battles. This is a nice little taste, poor video quality aside.

Ogres goin nuts - YouTube

 

I see what you're saying and don't agree with it. The reason I defend sprint is for the positive outputs and not the negative. I think sprint can be fixed over just being removed. I think if you are taking fire and your shields are down and/or health is somewhat depleted, you should not be able to sprint of if you can, it should be much slower to normal.

What I see with sprint:
+ Increased effectiveness in flanking/sneaking/and out maneuvering your opponent
+ Better balance between vehicles and infantry
+ Faster Gameplay (players getting back in the fight quicker)
+ Infantry's ability to cross danger zones quicker
- Running Away
- Sprint makes old maps play different

Edit: Posting a video of the ogre's owning... really... really... and you want me to even consider that. We're talking a balanced game here. Ogres' smashing face is a very very poor example.

 

Notice how retreat and engagement aren't mutually exclusive. Moving to a better position whilst still looking at your opponent, firing if possible, and ready to engage if not. Sprint is, instead, a "turn around and run away" mechanic, which forces the other player to do the same go match speed, making combat and retreat mutually exclusive when used.