Version 2.5 available. I've been playing Halo with a group of guys since Halo2. We would always begin with a round of slayer on Foundation and enventially end up playing hours of ctf on Relic. I knew the landscape in Relic would be impossible to recreate so for my first forge, I created Foundation H4 and will be entering it into the Forgotten Treasures III contest. Foundation H4 is ready for download from my file share "ptwob". Hope you enjoy my effort to forge this classic, and I'm always open to suggestions. -Images reflect latest version.
I knew the design of the Pit was critical so I focused my efforts here first. Many maps over the years never quite captured it right. My Pit has gone under several revisions based on feedback from my buddy Mogrity. Edited by merge: Next I worked on the overall layout focussing on symetry. This is when I learned I was not only limited by budget, but also by number of pieces. Very frustrating and I didn't think I would be able to finish the map until I found two key pieces (coliseum wall/window and stunt ramp). After I finished the Walkway, I began work on the four rooms. Again, many revisions based on limited pieces. The stunt ramp worked great for walls and ceilings. Lastly, I placed the weapons and spawn points. Originally, I focused spawning in/around the rooms, but after some gameplay and constantly having somebody spawn behind you, I increased the number of spawns on the Walkway and around the Pit. [br][/br]Edited by merge: I had some difficutly with the man lifts...tended to get stuck occasionally and it would take some time to work your way off. I angled them slightly and created a small trait zone which seemed to help out a lot. You can now always make your way back to the Walkway. The other item I was worried about were jet packs and the ability to fly up to the pipes. I didn't think this should be possible, but I second guessed myself because of the super bounce exploit...not sure if the was only on the PC. I tried to create an ivisible wall with a non-movement trait zone not with a kill zone. There are still ways to reach the pipes, however once your up there, you can't move. I'd be intrested in hearing everyones thoughts about this exploit.
Overall, this is a pretty good remake. However, there are a few key flaws: >The walls aren't high enough, so you can jetpack over them. The trait zone doesn't fix this problem, I'd even go as far as to say it makes the problem worse. Once you jetpack over the walls, you get stuck (since you can't jump or move due to the trait zone), this makes it impossible to get back into the map without A. Killing yourself, or B. Being killed. This is a very bad system for keeping people inside the map as you're not always going to have grenades to kill yourself, or people could be dicks and just camp, and other people won't always be able to kill them, and shouldn't have to go out of their way to do so. Honestly, just use soft kill barriers and safe zones. >There's quite a bit of z-fighting and overlapping textures, I would try to smooth things out a bit. >The central structure looks nice, but doesn't function properly. You're supposed to be able to look out the windows from inside the bunker, but there's currently no way to do so. This was a key element in defending the center in the original, and something that should absolutely be in a remake. >The spawn times for the weapons are ridiculously low. There's currently 2 rocket launchers, 2 shotguns, a bunch of needlers, and a sword - all with plenty of ammo, and only a 30 second respawn. I realize this is probably to be true to the original, but simply put, this isn't Halo 2. The game has changed since then, and certain things need to change with it to make sure it plays properly. >The trait zones over the lift are easily exploitable. While they're meant to effect you while going up the lift (which they don't really do anyways), you can also exploit them however you want if you know they're there. If you know where they are, you can jump through them and leap across half the map in one jump.
Exactly the type of feedback I was looking for. If I remove all the trait zones, you can still exploit the man lift with a jet pack and fly more than three times high as the current wall. Increasing the wall height to eliminate jet packing over them would make them riduculously high. I think soft kil barriers is probably the way to go. As for overlaping textures, I know there are several areas I had to overlap blocks to create the angles I needed as well as fill the entire structure. Not sure how much I'll be able to smooth things out. I'll definately rework the central structure. I originally had the rocks higher in the center but it also created a mound outside the structure where you could easily hope onto the top. I could simply lower the walls which would increase the opennings allowing you to fire out. The trick is to keep the area fluid inside so you can run around smoothly. I actually decreased the weapons spawn time to match that of the original game. I plan on having another gaming session this weekend with my friends and we'll see how it plays out. Lastly the trait zones over the lifts were not placed to effect you while you're going up the lift. I'm sure you've been on a lift and just simply bounced around on the top...not going any higher. This is what was happening and it was very difficult to get off. The trait zone affects this area so that it is easier to jump back to the outer walkway. I've only been able to exploit the effect with the jetpack...not by just jumping through them as you say. With or without the trait zone, you can still jump almost to the central structure.
Yeah, if raising the walls isn't an option, soft-kill zones are the way to go. Some people prefer hard-kill zones, but I personally prefer soft-kills. I don't think people should be punished so harshly for exploring the boundaries by instantly dying, as it'll make people afraid to go near that area again. A good middle-ground I like to use is so that Jetpackers can only reach the tops of the walls while going in a lift. If they can just jump and jetpack to the top, the walls are too short. Also, no matter how tall your walls are, they should alway have kill boundaries defined just in case. Not only on the outer walls either, but for height as well, so people can't lift-pack 9001 miles into the air and pick people off with DMRs. That was a HUGE problem in some of Reach's Matchmaking forge maps. The overlapping textures are fine (in some cases), it's only when they create z-fighting (the act of 2 objects taking up the same space, creating flashing textures) that it looks really bad. This ca be fixed by making sure they don't take up the EXACT same space. Try raising or lowering one of the pieces slightly and you'll notice the flashing stop. Yeah, I made a Foundation remake as well, and ran into the same problem. I ended up using 2x2 steeps, but I think those come off as looking kinda gaudy. I'd recommend messing around with making the gap lower (while still not being able to jump through it). I'm gonna mess around with that on my version later tonight as well, it's really the only solution I can think of. I understand what the trait zones are for, bad wording on my part. I was able to exploit them with jut spint-jumping. It's not a MASSIVE leap, but it still gives a decent jump bonus, and really, and unintended exploit like that is bad. I'm using one-way shields at the top of mine, but I really wouldn't recommend that, as they block grenades. If I think of a better way to do it tonight, I'll be sure to let you know.
I had a trait zone w/ zero movement & 200% gravity and the jet pack still blows right through it. I think the soft kill option is my only choice.
Removed upper trait zone and added soft & hard kill zones. Reworked center structure...dirt continues all the way around and is piled up near the walls so you can easily shoot out. Edited by merge: It does slow down and stop just the jet pack. Howerver, Jet Pack plus man lift results in extreme height and doesn't seem affected by the trait zone.
Checked out the new version. Definitely some improvement, but I still noticed some problems: >The z-fighting is still a big problem. Most notably, at the turret platforms. >Weapon spawn times are still ridiculously short. >The center bunker is looking better, but I'd replace the glass corners, so you can't see through the walls. I personally used 3 "1x1 Flat"s and 2 "Column"s as joints. >On the 4 inside columns of the center bunker, you should be able to get on top of the bunker from *1* of the columns. In the original, 1 column had a chip in it, which was used to jump to the top of the bunker. It's supposed to be the one pointing at base #2, which actually leads me to my next point... >There's a lack of color, or other methods of orientation. When I spawn, I'm not sure where I'm going. The original had all 4 bases marked with large numbers so players could instantly know which base was which. I'd highly recommend using either lights, or making the numbers for orientation's sake. >In room #2, there's a little cubbie spot you should be able to jump up into. In the original this was a HUGE camping spot in custom games. This spot literally inspired infection/flood as you and I know it today. While not too used in slayer, it's still a massively important part of the map, especially in objectives like oddball. >The kill barrier at the top of the map is too low, and I find myself accidentally jetpacking into it, not just while trying to explore the map boundaries. I'd move it up a lot higher, and place a soft kill where the hard kill currently is. >Speaking of soft kills, when going up the lift, you often fly right into the barrier. While it's not a huge deal, it's still distracting, and should be moved a bit so it doesn't happen. >The lift could use some nerfing as well, as it shoots you like a million miles into the air. I messed around today, and got a good working one with a grav lift and gravity volumes. I've got it in my file share if you feel like taking a look. There's still a good amount of stuff to work out, but all in all, it's coming together nicely.
Again, some great points. I could adjust the base of one of the columns to allow a person (w/o a jet pack) to jump up to the top of the bunker. Unfortunely I have to use the glass corners because I'm out of building blocks. I've made many adjustments to save blocks...not sure if I can find 9 more to change the bunker walls. Columns as joints would be way too big. For orientation, I actually have numbers on the front of each base. My buddy didn't even know they were there until I pointed them out. As for spawning inside the rooms, I could work on adding some colored lights. Agree with the kill barriers. I planned on adjusting them today. Lastly, I'll take a look at your lifts. Thanks again. Edited by merge: Looked at your gravity lifts...definately prevents you from sky rocketing, but nowhere near the lift as the original. We need something in between. Wish there was a way to adjust the power of the man cannons. As for the rest of your map...very nice. Wish I would have seen it before...could have "stole some of your ideas" I definately like your use of color. I tried that originally but couldn't make any of the pieces change color. On second look, I can see the subtle change as well as a couple of options that could help out. I noticed you used a lot of platforms...definately a pallet I overlooked. Really like how you worked them into your design. Could have used those more for my floor and walls. Edited by merge: Added version numbers to description. v1.1 uploaded to file share. Added some color based on feedback from RegardlessDolan. Cleaned up some of the z-alignment issues. Changed the soft kill areas. Edited by merge: Version 1.3 uploaded. - Based on suggestion to replace see through corner walls that make up the bunker, I had to make major revisions to the floor to free up pieces. Ultimately a much nicer look in my opinion. - Tweaked trait affects above man cannon. - Minor cosmetic changes were also made. [br][/br]Edited by merge: Updated version 1.8. - Following game play last night, changed spawn time for rockets. All other spawn times remain true to the original. - Removed some of the neutral spawns from inside the rooms. - Fixed Room 1 with fans to be more accurate. - Reworked Room 2 to add "carney holes". Purposely made it slightly difficult to make it up to the hole (w/o a jetpack of course).
This is a very accurate remake, there is one thing that is in accurate in terms of the geometry of the map. There is a flat section in all 4 ramps in the middle of them. I've taken the liberty of highlighting it in red on one of your screenshots. I would suggest correcting this by either moving to top ramp back and putting a block in or moving the bottom ramp down into the floor and pulling it inwards and putting a block in the middle. Either way the flat on the ramp has to be behind the block next to the ramp. You can see it on this screenshot from the original map. Though its not that clear its the best I could find to show this particular thing. Also I forgot to mention, whats with the fusion coils in the middle? They don't feature in the original.
Without having played this map, I think you should put in an invisible ceiling using a trait zone set to change jump height to 0% and gravity to 200%, all other traits unchanged.
Thanks for the feedback. I knew about the flat spots on the stairs where the magnums sit and actually thought about fixing that today. Up until now, I relied on youtube videos to recreate this map since I lost my HALO2 map pack. I wasn't sure if the videos were from XBOX or the PC versions, so this weekend, I replayed HALO2 to unlock Foundation. Here's a screenshot of the fusion coils. [br][/br]Edited by merge: I think the first time I tried movement 0% and gravity 200%. I'll try one by changing jump height and let you know how it works. Thanks.
have not read the entire thread but in regards to jetpacking out of the map, depending on it's size you could try inverting some gravity zones over the map. when you double up on them it's very hard to move through unless walking on the ground.
Be sure to disable equipment usage in that trait zone as well. You don't need to make movement 0% at all.
Sounds like a good idea...I'll give it a try. Also plan to rework the stairs, but I'm going to need to make some other changes since I'm close to my spending limit. Hopefully I'll have another version up tonight. v1.9 available. - Added flat area on "stairs" behind the pillars. - Added inv gravity zones above the lifts to negate exploiting the man lifts by jetpacking. Thanks Waylander. - Spawns spots corrected to mirror original maps (may need to adjust based on gameplay after this weekend) - KOTH locations mirror original game play - Minor "cosmetic" changes