It's funny how you typed "think a bit" before you typed one of the most obvious things about the shotgun. You think camping is a problem, but do you think that an enemy camping around a corner with the same weapon that you have (or an AR) is a problem? They gain the element of surprise, but because they can't help their teammates if they do it frequently (unless they have an extended motion sensor), and because waiting isn't as fun, most don't camp with an AR. Even when they surprise you, you would have a fighting chance with the same weapon (depending on your reflexes). Not only is the 1sk capability of the shotgun what makes camping a largely advantageous tactic, it's what makes being surprised by a camper much more frustrating. I just don't know why you think getting 1-shotted at a longer range, say about AR range, would be any better. You would have a weapon which would be as easy to use as the AR with an instant kill, which is much better even than the SAW. You would just walk around any corner of a CQC area and kill your foe unless you missed, instead of waiting for him to walk by. A wary player wouldn't be able to hesitate at a corner and turn back or throw grenades to check for a shotgunner, he would just die unless he ran away from the dot. And having some sort of compromise by making the shotgun range just a bit longer would not discourage camping, it would just give the shotgunner more room for error when deciding when to pop out of a corner at an incoming or hesitating enemy. Even if there is a ton of room in every map to back up from corners, such that melee-range shotguns are useless, making it a hyper-AR would not add to the game, it would just reduce the skill gap. This is why the least problematic solution to shotgun-camping is to remove shotguns. I think that this is still problematic, because I think an on-map shotgun adds an interesting dynamic which can be countered with call-outs, caution/hesitating/baiting him right at the limit of where you could win with your own weapon, grenades, and sticking with a teammate. You can know when there is going to be an enemy with one on the map (or contest it when it spawns), you can get info on where he can possibly be, and you can't be killed frequently by him because there is one with limited ammo every 2 or 3 minutes (or more on some BTB maps). The boltshot and personal ordnance eliminate these positive aspects. The boltshot's 1sk range is farther than I expected it to be: it's at least as far as the Reach shotgun, which was farther than the H3 shotgun. (It's good that) It's not used so often because the pistol outguns every primary at mid range, and every rifle at a closer range, and because some players get practice with the PP noob combo in BTB and are thus less likely to switch from it to a shotgun on smaller maps (I use a pistol on smaller maps). You could say that there is a balance between the utility of the secondary weapon niches, but each one is so powerful that encountering an enemy in his own niche is frustrating and insurmountable. It is individually-limiting and thus not completely competitive for the same reason that splitting the utility rifle isn't: a non-pistol user won't stand a fair (even-playing field) chance in mid-range battles against pistol users- they have to avoid them and exclusively camp with the boltshot, or exclusively pop in/out with the noob combo. Likewise, a non-boltshot user can't turn enclosed (in other words, when there is no open space beyond) tight corners or doorways without taking a risk of being killed with no chance of fighting back (you can't nade every corner). BTW, I'm glad that just one rifle is as dominant as it is (DMR), but it's very slight, low-max bloom is the worst bloom possible. Everyone spams because there is roughly an 80-90% chance of hitting the headshot at medium range (or very long range while scoped) with max bloom, but that means that everyone will miss one out of every ten times. Sometimes I forget about this and wonder why my dead-center headshot didn't register while cross mapping, because it happens rarely. The utility rifle is still effectively split somewhat because of the light-rifle's slightly faster scoped kill, with the drawbacks of the 2x scope, slowest/hardest unscoped kill, and the bright trace lines. [br][/br]Edited by merge: I find it a bit ironic (yet also respectable) that you would favor no-bleedthrough on the grounds that it is unpredictable, not only because you like bloom (which is also practically random in a similar way- it's not strictly random in the most straightforward sense because it doesn't force a player to immediately half-spam, but it ends up causes gameplay which depends on pure chance amongst rational players), but also because the biggest effect of no-bleedthrough besides sprint-double melee is how it makes gun+single melee almost obsolete when headshots are factored in. This nerfs the AR kill-time the most, which is what you want to be viable.
I think you underestimate how drastically I would reduce Shotgun damage per range. I'm talking slightly above melee range 1hko, sword plus melee range 2hko. Increasing the range of effectiveness (accuracy) while decreasing damage. At that point, corner camping for melee would almost be as effective as corner shotgunning (not very), and so, most shotgun usage would occur shooting around corners, where you can't melee, because that's where its biggest advantage is. In that sense, I do suppose it stops double-pummels while fulfilling anti-camp as well. Or at least, that was my intention. At the very least, it makes the shotgun camper pretty weak for clean-up, and if the other guy has a power weapon too, you're done.
Now you're confusing me - you say that you "would reduce shotgun damage per range", which contradicts "in addition to increasing the shotgun's range, I would...". If you mean by the former that you would set the damage drop-off gradient to be steep, which is what you describe later, then you're not changing anything by much, because your 1sk and 2sk ranges are very close to what they already are in H4, just just with an ever so slightly less steep drop-off - but the direction in which you are changing the damage drop-off gradient ever so slightly (to make it less steep) does not discourage camping with the shotgun, while it does allow for a greater margin of user error than before, just as I have described to you before. I already accounted for the situation where the range drops slightly, so in a way I didn't underestimate how small your change to the drop off could have been, even though in other paragraphs I had compared it to the SAW or AR. You say that corner shotgunning is not very effective, but before you said that shotgun camping was a problem (at least because it was all you could use the shotgun for) - I guess you were saying that the shotgun is entirely useless. Waiting crouched around a corner or doorway for an enemy to walk past or up to you can get you easy kills, whatever its downsides are. If its 1sk is still a bit greater than melee range, like it was in H3 (it has been lengthened slightly in Reach and 4), it would still be much better than meleeing someone, because you wouldn't be meleed yourself, you wouldn't be one-shot (no shields), and therefore you wouldn't necessarily be an easy clean up. If you're saying that a 2sk would "make a camper weak for cleanup", then that would be true of a non-camper, except the non-camper would still be much more likely to take more damage. I would agree with you that a shotgun which functions like a 2sk slightly longer sword (which is of course weaker than a sword, especially because of mid-sprint lunge) encourages camping less than the current one ever so slightly, but it would take a similar amount of caution yet give more room for error. It would still make it harder for players to get through doorways and corners in hallways of moderate size while baiting/getting an angle on the shotgunner. It would be more frustrating for the shotgun victim, and there would still be a lot of non-strict camping.
A steeper drop off after that. Point being, you can't camp hallways effectively. The concept is more important than the numbers, anyway. As for the slightly more than melee 1hko, that's the point. Discourage herp-derp double pummeling. Corner shotgunning wouldn't be effective after my intended changes* Think you misunderstood me there. I won't even talk about the sword. No reload, no punishment for missing a shot besides taking another swing, no real aiming skill gap anyway, no ability to change the number of swings (ammo)... That way, you wouldn't be done for holding the scattershot/shotgun out at longer range, plus there's a significant skill gap involved. How about turning the shotgun into a close-range, weaker, but more hitscan-like, no holding down GL? Say, two or three bounces max, with the distance resetting after each bounce (in terms of range, not damage).
does the camo actually works as it is supposed to? I can't seem to be able to kill invisible enemies. hell, sometimes the guy is almost dead, he turns invisible right in front of me, so I keep shooting at him, but he doesn't die. in a game I just played, a guy turned invisible in front of me, I shot a whole magazine at him, and when he reappeared, he was still in my crosshair, but he didn't die ???
I mainly use the shotgun when I'm in DMR duels that are going nowhere. Once we start gravitating towards each other, I pull out my shotgun and kill him before he gets the double pummel for this use, it's a perfect gun. the only problem is that it's even better for corner camping, and unless we get only zealot and blood gulch re imaginations, (maps with virtually no corners) I would keep it like it was in reach, but require that at any range, the opponent must have at least one shot in him to die from a shotgun, removing the surprise advantage of corner camping.
Mazdak, even Zealot could have had corner camp issues. Especially around the base ramps and GL spawn. Point being, corner camping should never be tolerable, and things that make it happen need to be changed.
But if you put a few DMR shots into the enemy who is walking straight at you, you wouldn't have to double pummel, right? Now that bleedthrough is back, and the secondary weapons have CQC uses, there are rarely double-pummels. In any case, when you're switching to the shotgun, the enemy might be able to backpedal in time to survive one blast, in which case you're probably doomed. I tend to not continue to walk into a player who is walking in a straight line into me (even if I don't see a shotgun), for fear of this or being stuck, or something else. Thus I would say that the shotgun is not the perfect weapon for this. I wonder what others would say if they weighed in on SpinCycle's proposal, because I have yet to understand how it would make the shotgun a skillful weapon. As for ricocheting projectiles, I think that a instant-travel precision weapon would be much better than any type of shotgun. It could be a laser or a (close to) semi-auto weapon with a laser pointer, (the latter would be better) if sweeping it to keep shields down around corners is too easy. Fauch, I've had that experience too, and it's hard for me to tell if it just becomes too hard to shoot them when aim-assist and bullet magnetism are turned off at the same time that they become invisible, or if they actually are "eating bullets" (learned the phrase from a kid who didn't lead shots in H3). No matter what, though, Camo definitely got a buff when they made the radar dots blue, because they can actually use their radar. This is besides the simultaneous sprint on BTB maps.
PP in BTB is bad, But if it was just the PP in BTB it would be bearable(specially with EMP resistance perk), PP+Sprint+Plasma nades+ordnance=Multiplicative reasons for vehicle deaths, They all enhance each other so much just not funny. So many times I've PP+Nade=dead, PP+Sprint+nade=dead PP+Sprint=dead/boarded, PP+PP if first one didn't last enough, Sprint+Nade=dead (if that failed insta respawn with full nades and PP Sprint+nade=dead) or just Rocket/Incineration/Railgun/Sticky detonator Ordnance=dead Not to mention there are commendations for killing every type of vehicle promoting killing vehicles in BTB, Making more people carry PP+Plasma nades (and non for getting kills with vehicles, Maybe there is one for splatters and wheelmans I can't remember but there so hard to get since vehicles die instantly no one tries(its like perfection commendation it would be cool to get but can't go into a game expecting it) Because this is my biggest issue with bleed though (if not my only issue with it), Don't wanna start a bleed v no bleed either but by random I mean near impossible 100% accurately know when 1 melee will kill in a battle situation, Meaning your actions are determined by a guess of the most plausible situation. (I don't mind plausible situation guessing in games but in this scenario in a fight that has came down to a melee I don't want it here) It's fine in 1v1 DMR v DMR because you know 3(idk if that's right) shots then a melee will kill and you know if you have hit 3 shots or not. (any good player should). But when you get into BR what happens when you hit ~4 shots (4-12 bullets), Idk maybe the melee will kill if only 4 bullets of the 4 shots hit so its a non issue, But maybe it takes 5,7,8,10,11? then if it is one of those, does it matter if it hit any of hit the head (even if you test it in forge and find out the info) You still can't you accurately know how many hit in battle. Then you get into automatic weapons, No one knows how many actually hit so even if you know it takes 17 AR bullets before a melee will kill you >17=Your dead and <17=Killed them, Then add "random"(unable to 100% accurately guess) damage from outside sources (team mates,grenades)
I have yet to try the PP. I don't know, I just prefer the feel of the magnum. I thought about that too, but don't want to say anything, maybe I'm just not playing good enough. anyway, the camo seems to be one of the best AA if not the best. in another hand, I decided to pick the auto-sentry, and it doesn't seem very good (and no one seems to pick it, I guess it says how good it is). if it followed you, I guess it would be good. but now I guess it's only good as an assistance for camping, because it doesn't seem very good on its own.
PP is the only thing that makes BTB bearable. The vehicles in this game are ridiculous in some ways. Mantis overpowered much? Gauss or Rockets hog even? Even with PP you have to get relatively close to hit with it because the homing is very low. If you do then your just not a good driver because I have gone up against people that avoid PP shots very, very well. If you play Infinity Slayer you would see PP is probably the worst sidearm. It's good at the noob combo, and usable for Regicide, but beyond that you are better off with either of the other 2 sidearms. Boltshot is the only one that needs a nerf IMO. The range is more than either shotgun, which is should never be. It should be a OHK from just past melee range and then dropoff significantly. DMR needs a nerf too, this gun is too powerful compared to the rest. IMO the stopping power (eg. you slow down when shot) should be removed entirely from the DMR and it should either drop to a 6sk or lower the RoF. All people do is spam this gun and thanks to the large crosshair and crazy amounts of aim assists it's really not hard to land 4 body shots and 1 headshot consistently. The skill in aiming is equal to, dare I say, the AR in that it's really hard to miss. And at least the AR requires people to get close. Mantis health needs to be reduced, but up the damage on the turrets and rockets or decrease reload/cooldown. The rest are well done. PV needs a nerf. Your idea for the ping is ok but then it becomes very awkward to use. I would rather you can not shoot while it's on, and if you do it turns off. Likewise, every time it is turned off it should require the full recharge time, which should be increased by 1 second or so. Auto turret needs a health buff or damage buff. But that's about it for abilities. Flinching/viewkick should be removed entirely and the kick out of scope should come back. Then make the rogue's perk allow you to stay scoped when shot. That's about all the problems I have with the MP. Oh, and Spartan Ops is great but I get so tired of getting killed then spawning among a group of enemies to be killed instantly. That should be fixed.
I'd make BS and PP primaries, reduce the stickies you can spawn with by 1, increase the pulse grenade count by 1, fix glitchy-ass camo, add projectiles to the Scattershot so it can actually hit something reliably, make Ammo increase the point requirement for PODS, and add about two feet to the distance that thruster carries you. PV is okay IMO - the activation sequence is a reasonable window of vulnerability. Nades in general are okay - you'll find well-placed frags are remarkably effective.
@WhackyGordon Boltshot and Plasma Pistol primaries? Are you out of your mind? Would you rather have a Plasma Pistol or a DMR? To rhetorically answer: DMR, because Plasma Pistol can't headshot like every primary and has almost no range.
Precisely. So for the PP, your options would be PP/Magnum, leaving you at a disadvantage against everything except vehicles, or to use Firepower and sacrifice your Tactical Package slot. For the BS, same deal - with CQC instead of vehicular control. That would mean no more AR/BS/Camo/Stealth/AA Efficiency which is a particularly problematic combo, or DMR/PP/Stickies/Explosives/Grenadier. You could still have AR/BS/Camo/Stealth/Firepower or Magnum/BS/Camo/Stealth/AA Efficiency. It wouldn't make the annoying loadouts go away, but it would make them somewhat less useful, giving other loadouts an advantage.
It's an improvement, but all it's really doing is taking away your tactical package.. and besides, PP doesn't have the same qualities as a "regular" (if I may put it that way) primary weapon. It neither fits into the category of Suppressor/StormRifle/AR or BR/DMR/Carbine/LR...