Lockout Remake (Video/Pics) - Contest Sub

But the BR tower in Blackout is larger than it was in Lockout, so the prefab peice we have is the actual size of the building from Lockout, not Blackout.

Blackout had several problems with scaling that made BR tower THE power point on the map, it was too large compared to Lockout.

 

I remember your remake in Reach. It was pretty good.

Looking at the video you definitely have all the detail work included. Props on that. Some scaling issues jump out but they don't seem to be too far off original.

 

Don't listen to Stevo. Tomorrow I'm going to get a new cable so I'll have halo 4 and halo 2 on 2 monitors. If you want I can go through every tiny detail with you.

 

big problem with this though Mick, i played the gaurdian remake in a 3v3 ts yesterday, although the scale looks pretty accurate and the layout is exact the scale is fed for halo 4, you can jump up form shotgun elbow to top gold even bottom gold to top mid, you have to scale up everything for halo 4, i don't know about this lockout remake but if its scaled really exact to halo 2, the game mechanics for halo 4 are going to kill it top mid will not seem open because you'll cross it in like half the time of halo 2 or halo 3.

Point made it looks good but i can pretty much guarantee that gameplay is going to suffer if you scale exact or down, thats why blackout was scaled up, yea br tower was too big but it all has to be for the game mechanics, my ascension map is 1.5x bigger than the reach one just for that reason, i don't want people to cross middle in a short time i want it to feel like halo 2 even with the sprint option.

 

Common misconception. Blackout is actually smaller than Lockout was. People just assumed it was bigger because BR was wider and longer. Everything else is smaller than lockout. Though the height is larger on blackout, hence why no jumps work.

I don't account for sprint in scaling, because well, that would make things huge and ridiculous if you scaled to sprint. Scale to default movement speed. Match 1s to 1s and jump height y = jump height y. Your scale will maintain accuracy that way, in both look and function.

 

I did load up lockout earlier on in h2 PC on my work laptop, yeah, the tower is a little smaller, but (without doing the maths) it looks to be around the scaling of the unconverted halo 3 > halo 4 measurements, so about 75% of the blackout tower... (I can't measure for sure, but the ramps up the side are 40ish degree angles I think and are approximately 2 units in width). The prefab piece though just doesn't look the right scale... And as already mentioned both the room sizes (double and triple) are way off from each other. So that's already something definitely not to scale as they aren't even scaled to each other.

 

Use a stopwatch and walk distances in each game. That'll give you exact values for offset error. Do that instead of just guesstimating steve.

 

I wonder why is it so important? what matters is that the map plays good. if it does, who cares if the scale is perfect or not?

 

I do. A map is not a remake, in my opinion, if the deviation of scale impacts the maps playability. Since so many LoS and movement aspects are affected by scale on Lockout, getting it right is pivotal to a successful remake.

 

A stopwatch timer isn't really credible considering the movement speeds per game is adjusted. Not to mention you can't really time the distance walking the width of a walkway (which is the measurements I guesstimate and go with) as the time to walk it would be something like 0.8-1.0 seconds and how would you be able to pin point the 60% scaling issue I think the prefab BR tower has?

As I say, I'm probably being far too picky. But, I still think if you're going to remake a map, it needs to be 100% accurate in terms of size and measurements, as well as aesthetics and playability. I don't doubt this map doesn't provide the gameplay side, but with the prefab buildings used, the scale is undoubtedly off compared to the rest of the map... I'm guessing that's why the video doesn't actually show either of those two parts in the fly through.

 

The time to walk a distance in one game should be = to the time it take to walk the same scaled distance in the new game. If the scaling is maintained these should be identical.

It's easy for them to scale up by modifying their world unit. If the player moves at 1WU/second then 1 WU = 1 second. Just transfer this to the new game.

If you really want to measure BR. Go to the top and walk the distance between the fusion coil wall and the front ledge, then walk the width. These walk times should be identical if they're properly scaled.

And I want to be clear I'm not saying you're wrong, but that I simply haven't measured the piece sizes for accuracy. Hence why we need empirical data to support your claims. I'm inclined to side with you but until I see the numbers I'm trying to remain unbiased regarding their accuracy.

 

ya your right mick the walk time and jump height would scale it right, thats why the guardian remake isn't right you move to fast and jump to high lol. Idk it's going to be hard for someone to scale almost exact for lockout or any map for that fact, mb only warlock or other small maps like foundation won't have a problem due to there symmetry.

I'll need to get some games tested first, if you Mick and Stevo wana test this out to A. prove the scaling theory and B. just see how this stacks up im available

 

Except for the fact that Blackout's BR tower is a hell of a lot BIGGER then Lockout's BR tower.

Blackout was BAD, maybe the worst remake ever made by Bungie. Not only a lot of jump were missing, but the fact that the BR3 was so big was awful. The best strategy in Blackout is simply put your entire team camping BR3, because it has a lot of cover, space and its the highest place in the map.
As this weren't enough, a regen equipment was also put there. Bungie went full retard.

The forge's BR tower is good and the remake is excellent, best one I've seen yet.

 

I've never actually used the prefab pieces for their intended purposes, so... technically I don't know what they look like. Are they that accurate to Lockout's original pieces?

Anyway, I ran the "stopwatch" method, and after a few runs the average from side to side on the top is 1.4seconds in h2 (PC) and 2.0 seconds from tip of the ramp (top) to the tip of the slant for the jump.

But, I did also notice something I didn't notice on the last run through as I was primarily looking at the BR tower. The room double doesn't sit flush to the room triple on Lockout either. It's offset by a about 1 unit (or what looks to be).

As for Blackout being a "bad" map. It wasn't my favourite, but neither was Lockout when I played H2 PC... The differences between the two are pretty slim as well. The scaling of the BR tower in H3 suited it more in my opinion.
Every one of Bungie's map remakes have had significant differences that make the maps play somewhat differently, so why should Blackout be any different? Beyond the justification of all the H2 fanboys simply wanting Lockout back.

 

Call me a fan boy if you want, but Blackout had serious problems. Part of it might have been due to Halo 3's mechanics but it had some fundamental flaws.

Missing aspect #1: Line of Sight between S1 and BR3. While it was only a small opening, this hole provided a opportunity for someone to safely distract someone on BR3 while another player could cover them from S2 or Lift base. Without this line of sight you're only left with 1 maybe 2 LoS to cover BR3, making BR3 that much more dominant.

Missing aspect(s) #2: Almost none of the jumps made it in. This made the map feel that much larger simply because there were NO convenient ways to get around the map. You could argue the doorways were a design accident, but I don't believe that's true at all. Nothing in map design is ever an accident IMO

Missing Aspect #3: LoS between library and lift base. Obvious one since they plugged the window. But this was a major control point and made the library useful. In 3 the library was a death trap you avoided at all costs. Making this area worthless.

Fault with Blackout: Since BR3 was so dominant it made it incredibly easy to watch the sniper respawn. If you'd manage to get the sniper back to BR3 it was game over in most cases. This was exacerbated by the spawning.

Fault with Blackout/Halo 3: Since halo 3 did not weight spawning based on y values, you'd often spawn BR1 when the other team was camping BR3. Well this was awful since as soon as you'd spawn you'd pop up on their radar. Sure you could get the sword/shotgun, but fighting uphill with those weapons was not easy. I can't count the number of times I died at BR3 and then respawned at BR1. It was like the other half of the map didn't exist

I can keep going if you want and talk about all the little bits and pieces and why they made Lockout so good, and why Blackout for some reason chose to ignore them.

 

Still... I find that as more of a nostalgic feel. Sure, you preferred Lockout over Blackout for those given reasons... But I preferred Blackout over Lockout for the reasons they removed the jump access, and yeah... the spawning was a bit of an issue, but Lockout certainly didn't go without problems in spawning. I often found Lockout was a hell of a lot easier to control the entire map, over Blackout. While Blackout's BR tower was a lot more dominating, the rest of the map's LoS different, and appeared bigger all round. Simply holding the BR tower was a good move for an entire team, but the Sniper easily countered that... Plus, pluging grenades across the map was far easier from Sniper > BR Tower and getting kills as opposed to BR Tower > Sniper. On Lockout, you had to control the whole map and when you joined a game where a team was already doing so... you literally couldn't even play the map. At least BR tower was easily siegable on Blackout when a team tried to control the whole map.

Basically, it's each to their own. I never really had any decent matches on Lockout and while I only played H2 online on the PC, no matter what game mode, the map failed in comparison to a lot of other maps so I've never really understood why the H2 fanbase always want Lockout back.

 

Merely a matter of preference. I argue that Blackout is a dumbed down version of Lockout thus it's an inferior map.

Though I also loved just jumping around lockout, that map was my playground when I was online by myself.