I've played the map multiple times with different initial set-ups and this is my opinion on each one. Shooting the grenade launcher across the map blind has never worked for me. The better tactic seems to be the agressor and push forward for a better shot. All this does is scramble both players making for a more random engagement further down the match. Bounced a grenade into the opponent's ramp? He also has a radar and he's not stupid. He'll catch you and simply back off if you play too aggressively. This is when chases tend to happen. However, during my games, the person doing this is usually the one who dies. His grenade fails and that can easily be punished. This is probably the worse way to begin the game. The most common thing people do. It doesn't help that it's obvious and that both players are on each other's radar at the start. This also seems to be your best choice since control of the power weapons is mandatory, especially since the grenade launchers are so powerful. It bothers me that you chose the analogy of Rock, Paper, Scissors because this is nothing like that. In Rock, Papers, Scissors, you can only anticipate your opponent's choice. Where here, you can track his every movement with radar and it becomes a continuos cycle of stalemate, go to mid to predict his spawn, and stalemate again.
Look, the map simply is not good. Every decent player with a mind of their own has said this. The staff is full of ****.
Now that's going it a bit far. I was simply pointing out that there are limited strategies that work on this map. That doesn't make it a bad map. It may not be the greatest map, but it plays decently. Congrats on the feature and next time, I'll try to keep the criticism on the map thread rather than the feature.
I'm not staff, and the map is good. It isn't supposed to play conventional gameplay, hence the different game settings. The map plays perfectly for the gametypes settings. MuppetKing; While you do address the radar issue, you need to do the second scenario and acknowledge that he can see you if you get too close, so you don't run hugging tight to the centre to reveal your position... You stick closer to the outer wall and as soon as the window appears to throw your grenade, you throw it. By timing chance, the enemy player will have just turned around after collecting the Grenade Launcher and will be making their way to the ramp (or may be a little closer to the ramp). At this point after your grenade bounces off the apex off the ramp and into their doorway, it's too late for them to acknowledge the grenade and turn around. You simply run through the door and finish them off with a shot at this point. As for the blind Grenade Shot... I had it work twice. It's more luck than precise aiming, but it gets them one shot before they've fired which helps. And, being on each others radar has little influence as you both need to set off immediately and you both exit each others radar range before getting any indication of which direction they've travelled.
Regardless of your opinion of the map, the way you presented this statement here makes you a walking contradiction. You essentially said, "This map sucks because other people said so." Now I don't get how your argument can revolve around people being 'sheep' and not having a mind of their own when the only things you have said in this thread have been quotes from people you agree with and statements not dissimilar to the I just quoted from you. So instead of accusing everyone who likes this map of not having a mind of their own, why don't you just accept the fact that good and bad are opinions and some people feel one way or another about it. To me, that sounds a lot better than having to call you a person without a mind of their own too. On a more OT remark, I do have to admit that after playing this map so many times that differing your strategy became very hard. Yea, there may be multiple scenarios in which you could encounter a player, but once you thought you pulled something new out of the bag it was like it was useless to ever try it again. To me, as games progressed on this map it became about using the radar to figure out how to get the leg up on your opponent instead of using the map to trick the radar, something I felt this map did a pretty good job of at first. However, once everyone knows the tricks (and lets be honest, there weren't many) then strategy revolving around movement devolved into just straight up encounters or players trying very hard to evade each other. I'm by no means trashing the map, and it was a good map for the tournament, but from a lasting gem standpoint, this map is something of a one-trick-pony.
We get that you don't like the map. But all you are doing at this point is repeating yourself without giving any valid points. I don't mind the civil discussion going on right now but all you are doing is trolling and it's finally starting to get to me, good job if that's what you were going for. So please, and I mean this in the nicest way possible, stop it with your ****ing bullshit.
Meh, games aren't all about charging blindly into battle with the hopes of simply having the better shot. I'm actually terrible at aiming, and I play on 1 sensitivity because of that... Yet, the only real reason why I ever do well at Halo is because I play smart and use the game settings to my advantage. I stay one step ahead of my opponent and I often cause them to charge blindly into a grenade explosion, or grenade launcher shot, or sniper rifle shot as soon as they pop out from cover. I think about 1 in 10 of my kills is from my simply shooting someone with a DMR, where as arguable for the pair of you, it's 8 or 9 out of 10 kills with just the DMR. I guess that could be why I found that map perfect for the gametype settings because it allowed me to manipulate all my opponents in ways they couldn't understand, or left their minds blank at what I could be doing next, with what weapons I had in my hands... I know you two both have pretty closed mindsets in how you both believe the game should be played (hence why you both complain about maps and settings more than actually compliment the uniqueness in the combat they create), but it doesn't mean the style you both play is the best because you two are both best at that particular style. Learn to adapt and take on board the new playstyles this tournament sets out to create. I'm going to leave it at that
Can we have somebody other than Stevo explain why the staff decided on this map? That would be pretty great. Because Stevo doesn't quite understand our personal views, and frankly i have no goddamn clue what he is saying.
Hopefully I can kindly step back into this thread without adding too much fuel to the fire. And I apologize, this isn't very on-topic. Because Updraft @Charging Blindly into battle: I agree that games aren't always about charging into battle. However, it's much easier to do with Enhanced Radar because, when in proximity, you're opponent's positioning is indicated for you (assuming you know the in's and out's of the map. Without a radar, your opponent can find out where you're going and demolish you. @Using settings to your advantage: While I agree that baiting your opponents into grenades, GL, and Sniper kills is a good strategy, I see this as another argument countered by the more difficult gametype. The main reason is your radar automatically provides you the awareness you need; and all you need to do is wait, position your reticule, and fire. Without a radar, sniping or nading someone around a corner is much more difficult; but it can be done on 1v1's and 4v4's alike. In 1v1's you can watch your opponent's movement from afar and time his entrance into your nading/sniping point. Plus, you can also zoom your sniper towards the lane you predict your opponent to head to upon spawning and/or toss a grenade to strike fear into him. Otherwise, you can either easily bait players into nades when you're losing a fight. The key elements that no-radar provides is prediction of movement and a much greater emphasis on timing. source: MLG pros sniping on countdown. Also, my grenades -- Also, I wouldn't stress trying to compensate for your "terrible aiming" with 1 sensitivity. It always sounds good in theory, but it kills your reaction time and disallows you to scan around the map (unless you position yourself well). For me, my sensitivity is at 8, and I assure you that my aim is no better on 3, 4, or 5 sens. Sometimes, I just have mad spaz attacks though. There is nothing better than being able to look around and reacting quickly however.
Schnitz, stop using that goddamn proxy. OT: I do enjoy the map, aside from the one-way drop downs and the sort of blandness in the aesthetic department. It is simple, which I think is fair for a tournament where for many people playing in their match-up have never seen or played on it.
I'm not speaking for staff... just to clarify that. I'm not Staff and I had no involvement in this competition for the reasons that I knew I wasn't going to be on the Staff list much longer. I don't know why you guys picked it, but I was saying it was a perfect pick. The map introduced me to the gametype well (because I hadn't played the gametype at all, on any other map prior to the day before my actual tournament game). And before the discussion goes much further and expands into a discussion about the radar/no radar crap I couldn't really care for, I said what I said because I found this map perfect for the tournament. It did play extremely well for me. This is MY personal opinion on the map. You're all entitled to your own opinions, but you're not going to persuade me off mine by providing arguments about the gametype being inadequate. The map suited my playstyle perfectly and I could manipulate my opponents easily. So much so, I was extremely close to getting a perfection in my first game because my opponent knew nothing about my tactics and couldn't adapt. His only kill (at my spree of 13) was a stray plasma grenade that caught me trapped in the CPU tunnel. My training partner (a 50 in Halo 3, so quite skilled), I also beat in the first game 15-5. The map was good, that's all I was saying... But why are those 'key' elements actually needed in this tournament? The Enhanced-Radar provides actual movement, and your emphasis on timing is not as necessary. I could be wrong here, but this tournament isn't designed to show the rest of Forge Hub who the best of the best of the best is. It's here to create publicity and provide an activity for the members of forge hub to participate in. The tournament, while already catered to competitive players, needs to also be at least a little bit appealing for casual or low-skilled players when the prizes are as desirable for all types of Halo players...
Bolded: reply. Doesn't change the fact that the basis for said opinion is absolutely invalid, incorrect, false, untrue and, lastly, wrong. [br][/br]Edited by merge: They are at fault themselves for not being prepared properly.
I <3 that image So, you don't want the game to be stale, or 'broken' or 'boring'... but you want the game to be played in the exact same manner you've been playing since Reach came out? Give or take the inclusion of bloom... am I right? My opinion is my opinion. An opinion cannot be wrong, untrue, invalid or incorrect... if that were possible, then it would be fact (albeit, described as above), not opinion. Your opinion is that the map played badly, and the gametype settings aren't very good? My opinion based on my experiences of the map is that the map plays great, it introduces players to the varied gametype settings easily, it's simple to master, and it worked effectively with the gametype requirements it had to work with. That's the same mindset I previously had when I said: If a team has been spawn-trapped, it's a players inability to fight back effectively that caused the spawn trap. It isn't a problem with the map itself. ...or something along those lines. While true, in a sense... why should everything be made in the game to prove the most elitist of players correct, when there are players of all skill ranges on the game? I hadn't played the gametype or the map until the night of my first scheduled match (it turned out we got timezone differences wrong, and we had to reschedule for the night after) so is it my fault I wasn't prepared correctly to endeavour match after match on the same map? or was it actually because I have to work constantly and don't often find the time to sit and study how every different type of player plays on the map, or start tallying up statistics on how often a player traverses through a particular area dependant on my given location at any one point? If you think the map and gametype are boring and stale because they have limited tactics, don't spend every minute of your day studying the map. Don't take the game so damn seriously and try get a hobby that doesn't involve bitching about how other people find entertainment in things you don't... The first round has to be essentially an introduction to get everyone on the level of the tournament. If you want to spend every night practicing on the same map over and over, be my guest... I won't be. If all you're after is an extremely serious and high-skill curve game, enter the MLG pro league, or make it to the final rounds of the tournament. Of course, you'll still have the right to ***** and moan about gametype settings there when you're knocked out because you fail to adapt to any new environment. I don't really understand why you want the tournament to be so highly refined in the skill department when all you're doing is drastically increasing your chances to be knocked out. If you truly believe this tournament fails because everything is made far too easy, then I'll expect you to win first place without breaking a sweat... ...and furthermore, I'd expect you to not need to practice on any of the maps at all prior to your tournament match.
I really don't see why this is such a huge problem for you. My 'lack of' experience means I've had a great time on the map... you're telling me I'm wrong to have experienced such fun and competitive gameplay, simply because I haven't played the map to the point it destroys all entertainment value... am I right? And just to clarify, I'm talking about the map here, not the gametype. The map reflects the gametype's settings perfectly. If the map was played with your optimal gametype settings, it would create a very different gaming experience and wouldn't (or rather shouldn't) be comparable. Not to mention, the map has been built specifically to be played with these specific gametype settings, so your complaints about how the traditional gameplay is flawed because of gametype settings replacing skill is absolutely null and void for this map. (I've underlined map to signify that this whole time I've been trying to address my opinion of the map itself, not the gametype... which your counter-argument to every point so far, has been gametype related, not map related.) The map is simple, plays effectively, it introduces players to the gametype and to the tournament without complication, it looks appealing, it's easily navigated, it introduces players to custom power up settings, power weapon damage, bleed through damage...etc. It does everything it set out to do, therefore, it is a great map. Saying it doesn't accomplish these things is, well... you being stubborn because you wanted to play the tournament without radar settings, which has no relevance to the map itself because it was designed to use the enhanced radar. It may not be the best map of the tournament (or maybe even from the Forge competition), but it's simplicity makes it a great first round map.