You can't really just assume that. The reason that forge maps are able to be saved as the "difference between default Forge World and your map" is because all of those differences amount to distinct objects. All that has to be saved is which object was used and its exact (for want of a better term) positioning. Terraining a map involves dynamic changes the file itself rather than just adding a piece of object type/position data to it, and requires dynamic skinning etc. to allow for smooth looking terrain even after changes which the engine can't predict. The only effective way I can think of achieving anything close to this whilst retaining the "object" modularity of Forge is along the lines of what Nutduster said, basically having a variety of different sized and shaped hills etc. that you could work with to build a new terrain out of the existing one. Obviously this would still have slight skinning issues where the object merged in to the existing terrain, and more in depth terraining would require high densities of these objects. We all know how that ends.
Half an hour? Twenty minutes? Are you a slow worker? I like the new features but I can't say I had many problems with how it works in Reach right now.
You were cranking out maps after 5 minutes? Also I don't think you were quite understanding the point of what I was saying if that's what you took away from what I said.
Speaking only for myself, those features are nice but incredibly minor. With coordinate editing and using the left stick for fine adjustments, I never found it especially difficult to align objects quickly and accurately; the one thing that made it hard was the object rotation glitch, which for all we know still exists even with the new magnetism feature. Locking means little to me - if anything it sounds like a potential headache, since you have to lock each piece and then (if you need to adjust it later) unlock it and re-lock it after the position change. To me, the highlighting of the selected object is a superior feature in terms of ease-of-use and it will make the piece-locking basically unnecessary. As for duplicating, I can't imagine using that more than a few times per map, though partly that's due to the way I build - I imagine racetrack makers would greatly appreciate that. Of the announced features so far, only dynamic lighting means much to me. And as beautiful as it looks, I'm concerned about potential performance ramifications, so even that has me poised between giddy and worried. Again, speaking only for myself - if they really want to grab my attention (short of revealing a fully-featured map editor of the sort we both know can't exist in Halo 4), here's what I'd realistically hope for: - Grouping of objects (multi-select) with the ability to rotate, move and duplicate the entire group at once. This is a no-brainer feature that would save a ton of time for re-building maps or making some kinds of symmetrical maps. And with the new object highlighting it seems like an intuitive thing to include. - New environments/new objects/new palettes. Granted, RTX wasn't the right forum for this kind of showcase, but I wish our first look at forge had included any of this. The stairs were hopefully just the tip of an iceberg of unseen wonders. (I'm really hoping for these other two forge environments to have largely separate palettes, e.g. a human one and a covie one - that would be so cool.) - Diverse object coloring, lighting, and FX. Stuff we can use to make maps look different from each other. To hardcore forgers this is manna. It has been speculated that the abundant white panels on the re-skinned objects may mean that we can partially change the color of many of the familiar objects - that would be a big step in the right direction, and I hope it's true. - Undo button. Basic feature, very useful and time-saving (in my book this beats the object lock, object highlighting and magnetism combined). - The ability to lock a rotation axis and rotate the object on a secondary axis only, regardless of its current tilt. Having to do math calculations to build all or part of a map on a 30 degree angle is a huge time-waster; I've actually elected to not finish a map idea before just because I knew the build would be a huge pain. - Framerate. This probably won't be discussed by 343 at any point, so we're just waiting for the game to come out to see what they've done. But I've scrapped so many maps in Reach because of this problem that it trumps all else for me.
All of those things would be nice, my point behind those three things (locking, magnetism, duplicating) are they are three small things that don't seem big now but every single forger would benefit from them to have them as options. From maybe minor ways, to major ways. Different forgers have different levels of skill and while you might be used to positioning objects quickly and accurately using fine control others might not. Hell, I still remind people occasionally that "fine control" is something you can do. Also that "fine control" still isn't quite as fine as it should be. I for one have had trouble when a piece is .1 (or is it .01, I forget) degrees off and the degree of control is just not fine enough to properly align the pieces. Especially if they are two dissimilar pieces of varying sizes.
You seem to have stumbled across information that no one else has access to. You're basing your entire argument off of an assumption. Just because what they showed us the other day would appear to be something similar to what we already have, does not mean that they do not have more they are withholding. In fact, I'm sure there is much more to forge than what they've shown us. How do you get and maintain interest? By building it up, keeping an audience wanting more. What they showed us the other day is but a teaser.
The point of view that it was, in some way, accomplished on the console. I must admit I only ever rented Farcry 2, so my editing experience with it was as limited as blowing up a lot of ammo crates. I've spent loads of hours on the FC: Instincts editor. That palette is also fairly repetitive and inferior to Reach's. Although, the ability to edit the natural environment is ambiance that is lacking in forge currently, so I hope they've come up with something in regard to this. I entirely agree that the multiplayer was awful. Something that I would imagine is practical, even with Halo 4, is if you could select parts of the terrain to be on/off. Ultimately you could have some diversity that isn't storing any hard data, and I'm sure turning off terrain would also help with frame-rate.
Pretty sure we won't ever get a full blown editor. Don't get your hopes up. If you want a full on editor for Halo, play Halo Custom Edition or Halo 2 Vista.
Wern't we discussing this a while back? I was suggesting that it would be down right cool if, like Trials Evo, we got an option to get the fully fledged dev PC map editor, maybe toned down a bit. Like in Halo 2: Vista. Scripted events and animations, etc etc. That gives us forged maps, and also map maps for the more advanced. I was also suggesting that, in order to reduce FR lag, parts should be "baked" into the map. 343i did that with the lighting.
...To be "baked" into the map that implies the lights and shadows are part of the textures and not determined dynamically.
Anyone notice that during the PIG challenge on Halo 4 at RTX, there were two Dish pieces that looked different, one Forerunner and one Human? I might have it wrong or confused with some sort of other new piece but is it possible for them to have implemented multiple skins for most or all of the pieces in the new Forge Worlds? Halo 4 Panel | RTX 2012 - YouTube 26:32 - 34:50 Even if there is no forerunner Dish piece in this footage, surely they wouldn't mix together different aesthetic styles in the same set of pieces? It would be like making a Lego model out of different colours of the required bricks.
Well, plenty of pieces we do recognize in there... Brace Large (yay) Dish (forerunner looking from the sides, brown and humanish looking trim) Sniper Tower Wall Corner Antennae Large Struts Walkway Cover looking thingy Windows (notice the lack of stupid texture on the glass?) Platform Y Large Platform Corner Large (upside down where the 2 banshees were) A few of the pieces have stairs added to them... Polygon count, oh gawd... Oh, and I hate hate HATE listening to these two jack holes that do the HORSE games...
They might be the same with different textures on different sides, like in Reach. That's what it appears as to myself.
I think that is just the other side of the dish, not a whole new one. but i do not doubt that there are new pieces in the Ravine pallet. Also to me, once they finish the mongoose challenge.. that sniper tower with the stairs, looks wider than it used to be.
I think you mean "boo." It still has that useless, interfering junk hanging off the end of it. It will still be used like crazy of course, but why not give us a long, flat object like that without the crap at the end that you have to hide outside your map? I guess brace large is better than no brace large though. Now that's a major "yay." Hopefully it helps with framerate. Better than making your own stairs, at any rate. We'll see if it proves to be a problem or not. Damn, I wish I could talk to one of the developers for five minutes right now to ask some performance questions.
Ok, I think people are being pretty pessimistic about the new forge, that was the first forge preview but it was hardly an official video, they were showing an alpha version of the game with the Old Engine the current version of forge is way more updated and way more improved, what they have shown so far looked like concept ideas, a little teaser to the forging community to show they have improved some functions, alot of you are saying things like magnetism are 'minor' sure that may be the case for you, but for the average impatiant gamer this removes the need for too much fine tuning and it means anyone can make a rather nice looking map. Lets think who halo is for, it was never for the serious gamer in any aspect what-so-ever, sure it has the capabilities to be a pretty impressive MLG showcase. But in the end Halo's main goal is fun, and that comes with instant satisfaction, which is what they want with forge. So I think alot of you who are saying you are really disappointed from the get-go need to seriously rethink the reason you play, anyone here who says they do forge for anything other than having fun with friends and the community, well quite frankly, you are doing it wrong. I quite like the way the new forge looks, those player trait zones and magnetism are great, but I think its the tip of the iceberg, and I appreciate 343i's time and effort to make us happy.
Please don't mistake "being pessimistic" with simply being not impressed. We're happy we're getting a forge that is at least on par with Reach's... But we're aware of many f the flaws of Reach's forge and wary that they may be repeated. The most critical issue being in regards to frame rate performance... For future reference, can we please not bust the balls of those who aren't jumping for joy over every little thing? We're not hating, we're merely stating our concerns.
I think most people, myself included, are just expressing disappointment that this is all we've seen so far. As a first look, it's unimpressive. I'm not pessimistic per se because I feel like I've barely glimpsed anything (well, hopefully!). This feels very much like it wasn't designed as a true showcase of forge - therefore it's sort of a strange marketing choice to first reveal forge in this way. But strange marketing =/= forge being bad. It's just that this is all they gave us to look at and talk about, so... we're talking about it. The above is all speculation. ...which is why I said explicitly that I was speaking only for myself. Halo may have acquired the serious gamer contingent by accident, but they've had it as a minority voice in their community since CE and have had to deal with it accordingly. Forge has gone the same way - initially introduced as a means of moving crates and weapons around on default maps, but quickly hijacked by enthusiasts as a way to build our OWN maps, and Bungie catered to that to some extent. While I don't think we will ever get (or should expect) a full map editor, it's not unreasonable to hope that 343 will keep pushing in the direction Bungie established in the jumps between the original forge, Foundry/Sandbox, and finally Reach. It should stay user-friendly and somewhat appealing to inexperienced wannabe map-makers, but they can wring more functionality out of their basic model - see my modest list of suggestions earlier in this thread for just a handful of obvious examples. Please stop telling people what they should do with the games they spend $60 or more (plus DLC) on. You're being presumptuous and a little rude. Anyway, for hardcore forgers, forging is fun, and they want more out of it so that it will be MORE fun. Same is true of the oft-criticized competitive players - for them, highly-organized teamwork and winning games is fun. They choose to enjoy the game differently from you, and that doesn't mean they're somehow incorrect to do so.
Beautiful analogy. It is indeed a balance, and even if a full map editor were an option whilst maintaining the benefits of forge as a file system, it would alienate a lot of people who see forge as something other than a full map creation tool, which would be sad to see. I agree that there's the potential for further moves which will help the hardcore designer crowd without sacrificing support for the other side, and it'd definitely be nice to see such things revealed. Are we going to cry or rage if not? No, but that doesn't mean we can't hope, and even discuss the possibilities of what else we could reasonably expect to be added.