that canvas map in the video looked very small. I could be wrong but this could be the catch for the dynamic lighting system: small maps. Making those craaaazy maps and race track maps from reach that use the whole map impossible to make again. 343 hasnt really thought outside the box as much as they should. Its really annoying trying to edit and create a map from terrain thats already preset and is the same every time. I know the terrain is different in different areas and theres 3 canvas maps yes thats great but what we reeeally need to make forge DIFFERENT entirely is a full-scale map editor where you can edit the terrain and change the whole aspect of your envirnment to how you want it to look, more towards the lines of Far Cry 2. now, this would be hard to do, but there can be a way to make the terrain and envirnment interact seamlessly with the regular forge objects. thats what we need
As of now I think the new tools and changes are nice, but I sincerely hope we get more/ different parts to use. I certainly think we will on the other canvases, but I hope they also have new parts on Ravine, as with no new parts and little new terrain we can't actually build much more than we can in Reach now. Then again, this was still a beta version with a lot of Reach elements in it.
I wonder if the fact that we have three canvases will create an interesting new dynamic to the forging community. We have never had that many canvases, and haven't had multiple true canvases since halo 3. This is all just a thought that popped into my head, keep in mind. But could certain people prefer maps on certain canvases, while others prefer another? Or maybe some forgers will feel more comfortable with one map's pallet, so most of their maps will come from that canvas?
Well I have already seen a few new pieces in ravine that were not in reach in the horse video you could catch a glimpse if one or two. There were stairs,that's proof that they are NOT just sticking to reach.however we do not know what other pieces they have made...I hope a lot.
Guys, if that indeed is a 1,000,000 dollar budget, I paused the video and saw that building blocks are still $10, but you can still only have 100 of them. What is going to account for all of that budget? [br][/br]Edited by merge: What would they use for DLC? Far cry added new weapons/vehicles. While a complete map creator would be amazing, you've got to think about some of the other aspects. I'm sooper pumped for FC3, because the editor MAKES that game.
*sigh* You start your post off by saying that you could be wrong, but then the rest of the post assumes that you are right, pointing at, and calling out 343. As for a Farcry 2 styled editor, no. Not going to happen on any game that actually thinks the file sharing system through. I've stated this before, I'll state it again, forge maps are all based off a single text file containing X,Y,Z coordinates, rotational properties, and time parameter. What does that mean? Small file sizes. This is the reason Forge is so wildly popular to the casual gamer and the more serious alike. Files take approximately one to two seconds to download. A farcry map generally ranged anywhere from 1.5mb to 6mb. And while you can argue that isn't a substantial number that would take centuries to download, it would only hurt the matchmaking experience; making players who don't necessarily like the player created content in matchmaking download the maps to their system. A solution to that problem? No longer allow user created content into matchmaking. Same goes for custom games, say you're trying to get a BTB game in on your new map. Sometimes getting a lobby of 16 people can be hard enough, and then having to sit around while each of them download the map? Not practical at all. The current system allows one person to choose the map, and then each game just reads to data file without downloading it. Practical. And that is what forge is. Practical.
Theoretically, could you write a program (or do it yourself) to simply take that "text file" and vastly change it, adding extra objects, creating new things, replacing skins and lighting and colors? Sounds like in trying to make it quick to download, they've left themselves hugely open to modding, which would explain the large modding community Halo always maintains. Well, I guess I learned something new today.
They never announced there would be three canvas maps. They mentioned three canvas environments. That makes a difference.
That budget figure could be a dev build thing that has no relationship to what will actually ship in the game. They may have simply plugged in a huge number so that for demoing purposes there would be no ceiling to worry about. Don't get married to it just yet. As for terrain editing, full-on Far Cry-type editing likely won't happen in Halo (and certainly not in H4) for the reasons Noxiw mentions. File size is a big hurdle for quick and user-friendly matchmaking, and forge is popular and prevalent in matchmaking/customs because the files are so small. You don't have to sit and wait for players with god-knows-what kind of connection to download a multi-MB file. However, it would be nice if 343 would allow the files to be a little bigger and convey more complex information; it might make possible some basic terrain editing (if not full 3D mesh rendering) and other features that aren't really possible in something as basic as forge, and it would also get rid of the object rotation glitch (please let that be a thing of the past in 4 - I am so, so tired of fighting with it). If not that, then perhaps they could add some terrain objects - beyond a handful of rocks that have limited usefulness - so we could do rudimentary terrain editing with them. Ten or so hills of different sizes and shapes that merge near-seamlessly into the map would be amazingly helpful. Some large-scale rock walls that are basically flat (or gradually curved) would also be great. There's a lot that could potentially be done even within forge's given limits. I'm still waiting and hoping that they've done something in this vein. What they've shown of forge so far is a bit disappointing to me in the sense that it's so unimaginative; dynamic lighting is nice but otherwise it all looks a lot like the forge we already know, which is not a dramatic leap forward in comparison to what happened between Halo 3 and Reach.
Trials Evolution allows you to manipulate terrain and the map files are really small. You download tracks in literally seconds. It's definitely not an issue. I'm guessing it just requires a certain amount of resources which they're not willing to give up for the feature.
omg guys 1,000,000 budget thats amazing just think the size of the racetracks the height of infection hotels the actual possibility of building towns an airport!!!!!!! and all that is now needed is bigger lobbies 16 people is good but cmon a 5 person team holding out against slow strong zombies in a mall what can i say besides cannot wait!
Trials maps are A) less visually demanding than even Halo 3 maps were, and B) are insanely simple in terms of the mechanics (pathing etc.) behind them. It's a straight line with some basic physical traits, all the stuff around that is basically visual fluff. I can see that taking up much less storage space than a Halo map. EDIT: just look at how big full maps are in Halo. Do you really think they'd make them so incredibly huge without necessity? I know that even if we got some kind of terraforming tool the maps still wouldn't be full size files, but they'd at least get to the stage of MB which leaves us back at the FC2 stage again.
It just depends how many data points have to be conveyed to each client, basically. They could probably come up with a compromise that resembles a full editor (or sort of emulates it, while taking some shortcuts to keep file size down), but it would take a lot of dev time and they might not see it as worthwhile. The other piece of the puzzle is user-friendliness. Forge is easy for anybody to use. Most full-on map editors are not, at least not relatively speaking. It's often hard to understand all the tools and to make a playable map. There's no way that budget means what it seems to mean. We're not going to be building maps with 2500 discrete objects in them. My money is on that figure not even being the real budget - just a development placeholder for the demo.
By definition of the word, it is practical to edit the terrain. As circumstances change so does the practicality. Farcry 2's editor and Halo's forge are both practical. The point I gathered that you were making is that forge is streamlined, and I agree. As technology advances, forge can remain streamlined while offering more diversity (as is already happening). So by following that logic, it is entirely possible that terrain editing could become a feature in Halo's streamlined map creating experience. Will this be included? Who knows. This will be forge 3.0, forge 2.0 was a major advancement on forge 1.0. Forge 4.0 is likely to exist and likely to be on the next gen console, that could provide the power to streamline such a feature.
Practical from what point of view? I honestly don't find Farcry's map editor the least bit practical. The controls were clunky, the palette was repetitive and you had to sacrifice much more time to come up with anything half as playable as the most basic maps created in forge. Of course, the game in question is to blame for that last aspect (let's face it, Farcry's multiplayer was awful), but still the idea that each player has to physically download a map before it is playable is a huge setback as to why they would include this feature. Your statement here is spot-on. I could see a full map editor being brought to the table in Halo 5, IF they somehow manage to keep file sharing quick and easy. However, in Halo 4, I just don't see it. They want the Halo experience to come full circle, you create a map, you get your friends, you play your map--all seamlessly. And eventually, once decent maps are created, this is extended to the matchmaking experience.
It makes me pretty happy that my addiction to forge won't be taken away for years. As a matter fact. Forge will get better. I never really thought about Forge in in H5 and H6 until you mentioned this. Yesss.
I'm simply pointing out that geometry manipulation won't affect the size of files all that much. When you download a file you only download the difference between default Forge World and your map anyway, you don't completely redownload Forge World so making a comparison to normal maps hardly makes any sense. Geometry manipulation would work in a similar way.
Sooner or later they will have to use some sort of map editor. Halo Reach's forge was a significant improvement over H3's forge, but Halo 4's seems to be only a polished/patched version of Halo Reach's forge. Unless H4 forge actually fixes Reach's common annoyances (screenlag, map overwriting, "gray," random piece shifts, etc), people will get sick of it quick, considering the pieces, so far, are similar. Besides making better/reskinned pieces and improving function/compatibility, there's not much they can do for forge. Switching to a map editor would be the next big step after HR or H4's forge to keep old forgers while attracting new ones. Though me personally, if halo 4's forge fixes Reach's issues, then I'll be able to stick with it for another year. I just hope 343i plans something different for H5 and 6
It isn't just "can they do it". Of course a full terrain editor can be done. Engines are powerful enough to accommodate. As nutduster, pegasi, and noxi have pointed out the ease of the file share system and the ability to instantly join custom games/matchmaking games/ etc with user made content is what makes Halo forge so approachable to the masses. The majority of halo players don't forge, though they love playing on match making maps made by the community or custom games made by their forging friends. This process would become worst case a hassle, best case a mild inconvenience over time to keep downloading maps. A further issue is people who don't have large harddrive sizes would be **** out of luck if they were forced into downloading 100 or so maps each of let's say 3 mb average size after just a day of gameplay. What noxi sort of touched on with the "is it practical" thing which I don't think got the explanation it deserves is learning curve. It is easy to take it for granted on a site called Forgehub that forging takes at the very least some skill maneuvering the menus, selecting the best piece to fit the right purpose, and gameplay settings to match the map. Halo 3 and by extension Reach with forge 2.0 made this process about as easy as it could be and still have a somewhat comprehensive map editor. Without a keyboard and mouse full level terrain editing is not a simple matter nor instantly intuitive. It would take tutorials and a fair amount of practice before something worthwhile was produced and that just doesn't appeal to your average joe only interested in quick satisfaction. Of course to this community, all we want is more, and that is understandable, hell I want more as well but I am not surprised by what 343i has shown thus far (remember, this is at RTX and the focus was on a HORSE map, not exactly VIDOC level information). Being able to magnetize pieces, duplicate them, and lock them in place are actually pretty significant small things that people don't seem to be giving a lot of respect to. When's the last time you guys made a map? Now remember how annoying it was when you went to grab a piece and instead you grabbed your carefully placed, took half and hour to properly align, floor instead by mistake. Or that twenty minutes it took you to line up two floor pieces because they just wouldn't sit flush with each other. Or the time it took you to re-orient and place the same piece when doing decorations. Forging quality maps will take a fraction of the time, or it could take longer with whatever new things they added, I don't know.