To give my two cents on this discussion... Time taken to produce a map is entirely irrelevant. Anything that may be contributing to the time you declare is also irrelevant. Rome wasn't built in a day, and it takes less than a day to make a ham sandwich and some people will hold that in higher regard. I could think up a concept, and play round in Forge creating a ton of other maps which could slightly improve my original concept and as I learn things in Forge, I adapt and upgrade my concepts. My latest map could arguably be an adaptation of my first map with what I've learned about piece combinations, framerate reduction, spawning, timings, gameplay progression, height limitations... everything. The argument about taking around two years to bring up a concept of a map is completely pointless... With that said, it's also a waste of your own time, FTG... to invest so much time in recreating something already made doesn't make sense (This is LD's point...). It may be beneficial to produce a remade map to a select few individuals that need a nostalgia boost (although it's realisticly only 7 years since release (I believe) which can't be much of a nostalgia boost) but releasing 21 versions of the same map only really shows dedication of perfection... BUT, you can't perfect a remake in the Forge environment. Visuals are greatly involved in portraying messages and information (albeit, mostly subliminally) while playing games. You see a colour or texture, you instantly know where you are. Guardian for example, if you spawn and see gold-tinged steel, you know you're in the "gold "room. See grass, you know you're at "green" or "forest"... See a block 1x4 laid on the floor in your map....... you're near a block 1x4? Even the background scenery comes into it as per the original lockout. If your field of vision isn't exactly revealing the right amount of terrain, space, depth and colour, you're not reliving the same experience. Long point, short; You're never going to perfect this map as much as you try to. It's a remake map that succeeded before, changing the textures to mis-matching textures and adding in unnecessary bumps to the floor isn't going to make people think your map is as good as Lockout (Because the most perfect remake would be exactly that, a re-skin of the original) and the worst part is, you can never have your map better than the original so why bother when everyone can play the original which will always be better than yours, if not, equal? Your two years of dedication and concept design would have been better off being aimed towards a concept and design of your own so you can start to understand the designing of maps as simply remaking previous maps cannot offer you that knowledge. The pure dedication to your map could have had you create an ultimately flawless map over two years and you could have learned so much more... Finally, the reason people haven't really given you any criticism to improve the map is because it's logically impossible because the map then would not be a remake of Lockout. The only way to improve this would be to mod the old skins over the top of it, but then, that wouldn't be permitted on the site. As for the map itself, it's very cleanly forged and the accuracy is of high standard. The particular attention to tactical jumps, often ignored, has done the map justice. You are receiving everyone's praise on what you have accomplished, it's that no one really gets why you've put so much effort into achieving what could only be compared to as a Bronze medal?
Jesus Christ shut the **** up!four pages of **** on this thread debating whether or not he should have made this map is enough. Cut the **** and either give the man REAL critisizm or why are you in the remake thread at all if you don't want to see a remake.
I started forging for very specific purposes, to recreate Lockout because it was my favorite map in Halo 2, I was disappointed with Halo 3's Blackout, and because every remake of Lockout I saw was poorly made one way or the other. I don't wish to make a map better than Lockout. I wish to recreate the map as close as possible, mainly towards gameplay and line-of-sight. That was my goal. In my former versions there were many things I wished to change that I didn't know how to change or go about without changing up my entire concept and without sacrificing something you could do on the original map. I won't lie, I am proud of what I've accomplished. I feel that those who are true Halo 2 fans and who still play Halo Reach will enjoy and respect what I've created for them. It may not be an original creation but I wasn't going for something original from the start. I still disagree that forging Lockout is not difficult especially when there are many things to consider when doing so. There's been so many times where I would start my concept and realize something was out of place only to have to restart it completely. I don't consider it a waste of my time considering what I've accomplished along with how others have appreciated my work.
No, you shut up. [br][/br]Edited by merge: For the record, Lockout is one of, if not my favorite map in the franchise, so I have no bias against the map you chose to remake. I believe your claim of the definition of difficult will be taken more seriously if you ever release an original design. Designing a map that performs well is difficult. Forging the map is tedious and time consuming, but relatively easy.
I agree, designing a map that performs well is difficult which I believe is what I've accomplished. I have original designs but I just haven't committed to finishing them because finishing and remaking Lockout was more important to me. Lockout is a relatively simple design so I can understand why you would think I didn't have much difficulty in recreating it but I've had others think the same thing only to find out that it was much more difficult than they thought.
I saw you dip your toes in the "give the author crap about something he said," pool a few pages back; don't act so innocent. Besides, the reason this is 5 pages long now is because 1. It's a remake of a map that's been remade thousands of times and is almost guaranteed to be looked it by many people because of it's former popularity and 2. Because there is a file share blackout and just about any map posted now garners much more attention due to posts being more uncommon these days. Going back to the OPs continued use of the term "concepting" when talking about his piece choices - that is not concepting. Concepting means coming up with new ideas. Choosing which pieces you use to fill a mold created by someone else is not concepting. You did not design the way Forge pieces look, so you did not concept those either. You are essentially saying, "I concepted the color of each lego piece I would use for two years before building a castle following these instructions." The only way piece-choice in Forge could be construed as concepting is if you actually drew down exactly which pieces you were going to use for each area on paper first, but even then you're really just copying a masterwork and using different colors. I know this is sort of trivial, but to any artist, calling copying "concepting" is sort of an insult.
Yup I did but unlike others on this thread I did not keep coming back to give him a hard time. [br][/br]Edited by merge: Besides I dont see how this I've seen a better looking one in matchmaking but it was the h3 version and did not have all the trick jumps. Very nice job getting this accurate. Is considered giving him crap. Quite the contrary I complimented his attention to the small details such as the jumps.i only said I've seen one more remake that was more aesthetically pleasing.(it looked more clean to me )
To be clear; No one is giving the author 'crap'. If anything, it's praise on completing such an accurate remake. The only thing driving a negative atmosphere at the moment is the lack of understanding of why it took so long to do so, if it was indeed worked on every day for nearly two years. But it's an irrelevant discussion anyway. The part I was talking about was: while his dedication and productivity did produce one of the most accurate remakes to date, it's something that even as an accomplishment, it will just wash away and not become a huge success (unless 343 are actively looking to put lockout remakes into matchmaking)... Remakes rarely get downloaded because they can be played on the original games they were designed for. I felt his time would have been better invested in perfecting his own map designs instead (to the same degree of effort and perfection placed into this map), as he would have clearly succeeded where most forgers fail in the aspect of map refinement. Can we stop the petty arguments now, before they start real arguments...
O rly? And it's "exaggerating." Don't you get the red squiggle lines when you misspell something? @Stevo: Aren't all internet arguments petty arguments?
I can see why it wouldn't be called concepting now that you've put it in perspective but technically I have gone over and used pieces in different ways each time I've worked on or released another version of the map. Each time when I reworked the map, I would change up the usage of pieces as well as figure out more productive ways to use those pieces. I may not of written down the concept of the map's forge pieces on paper but I think it can still be considered as working with concepts. PS: one area I did actually draw out and that was Grav Lift and Shotgun area but since I've been working on the map for so long, I didn't have to draw out the rest of the area.
H ya forgot that I even put that in lol. Also I'm on my iPod and there is no squiggly lines.for once autocomplete had its chance to help but failed and gave me no spelling options lol oh well.
I see it more as an accomplishment than something that will just be looked over. I appreciate you telling me that you'd like to see my potential in making original maps and I will surely do so whether it being a Halo Reach map or a Halo 4 map. Even if Lockout is playable on the original game and figuratively as Blackout, it is not playable at all in it's respective form on Xbox Live. My map recently got featured on Halo Waypoint, I've released a video on SingleHaloClips that's recieved over 4000 views with 100 likes and 1 dislike, the Suddoth brothers decided to use my map in their CGL tournament, and I've received comments of criticism and feedback such as questions about my forge piece usage & little details on the map(like why i used coloseum walls behind the lift area), praise from those who appreciate having a remake with such accuracy to attention to detail/gameplay, and even comments asking if I'm going to recreate my map in Halo 4. I consider all of these as results that tell me it was surely worth the effort and time I put into this map. And either way, as long as I have Lockout back in more of a respectful form then Blackout, that's all that matters to me and that's something that Halo 2 fans will truly appreciate.
Just wait until you experience first hand designing and forging a map, only to be ignored because the map is unfamiliar. You will then see those who praise remakes through different eyes. And it's Bungie's map, don't forget that.
I can see your point of view but that doesn't mean that every person who praises remakes does so for the wrong reasons. There's always those who comment for what a remake is and how it plays instead of just the fact that the map has been remade. And PS: It may of been Bungie's map but in my eyes they gave up on Halo which is why they gave the franchise to 343 and which is why they're working on another science-fiction shooter. They lost interest and lost faith in Halo and its community which is why even playlists that should be social are considered competitive and why Halo Reach wasn't updated until 343 got a hold of it. My point for bringing this up is simply that Lockout as well as all Halo assets are now owned by 343 and might as well be considered theirs since they continue to have faith in our community as well as continuing to release and distribute Halo content.
That's a bit of a backwards way to look at things. Bungie had Halo from the days since before it was called Halo. Marathon always has been it's predecessor and Bungie stuck with the Halo franchise until they completed what they set out to create. A 3 game, best-selling trilogy. Microsoft owned parts of the franchise which is why the franchise has carried on since Bungie had finished with it. The rights sold on, 343i pick up the pieces to continue the work. Lockout still is and will always be Bungie's work. Whoever supports the game in the future doesn't take past credit under their wing, they just need to step up to the plate of higher expectations and not let the fans down. Xzample is right in a way as well... people who appreciate remakes often look at user created content a lot differently and rarely give honest advice on how you could improve your map because more often than not, they fail to see the bigger picture as they cannot compare your map to whatever inspired it.
I can appreciate that, and looking at all the accurate jumps in your video takes me back to Halo 2 days where you could pull of some clutch ninja moves and embarrass the other team. It was awesome, and when 343 talk about Halo 4 being faster paced than Reach, I hope we can get some of that back. In the meantime, I'm going to grab this map and see just how familiar it feels - and if you've seriously captured the gameplay of the original, I'll be very happy and very impressed.
I appreciate Bungie creating the Halo trilogy but, not going to lie, it seems that they weren't truly committed to the Halo universe like it used to seem. There's so much story in Halo that has never been expressed outside of novels and the fact that Bungie didn't continue with Halo was very heartbreaking and unexpected. Halo Reach seemed rushed and ending Halo 3 the way they did, if they truly wanted to end the Halo franchise, there were more definitive ways in doing so but like I said before, the Halo universe is too big to just simply end it with Master Chief floating off in a cryo-tube. [br][/br]Edited by merge: Well I'll be looking forward in hearing your playing experience on my map I hope you enjoy it