I'd like to add to this point. Even aside from that fact that it wouldn't be fun, it wouldn't be very competitive either, just to bring it back to the original premise for disagreement. To balance the raw skill aspect, the strategy aspect of a team shooter is reliant on (appropriately balanced) earned advantages. @ Pac: I just don't see it. On the one hand you think instant respawns will be a godsend for dislodging spawn campers and cheap tricks etc. but on the other hand you claim it won't massively impact upon the way people approach map control. How can those both be true? And even aside from that clear contradiction, how can you not see the ways in which it will seriously change, no screw it, damage the principle of map control and the shifting thereof? I don't even, I just don't....
Yep. So Instant spawning is bad, folks. There ya have it. But man, Octagon map/gametypes will be so easy to make now. Thanks, 343.
^Silver lining right there. I maintain hope that it'll be as I said, with "Instant" effectively just being added in as an extra option in the respawn time setting for all gametypes. Regardless of my feelings on the MM experience, that'd be a nice added scope for a lot of different custom applications.
Agreed. I'm sure there will be some creative mini games/gametypes that will utilize it just fine. But as far as competitive..... no.
I don't feel like creating a massive 3 response text wall (though I really feel like it would be needed to explain why most of what was said was either complete crap, or attributing things that I did not say to things I did say. Like assuming my conjectured "idealized environment" is an environment I want to play in. I used that as a base case of what an team slayer game is at its core. Not what I want to play in. Also Peg the two points can coexist because unlike you I'm not linking the respawn timer with essential gameplay mechanics. I do not consider spawn trapping/spawn camping major gameplay mechanics therefore making it harder to do those things while still allowing for all the same mechanics of players killing other players, getting weapons, getting better positions intact. If that is your frame of mind I can see why you can't separate the two but contradict each other? Hardly.) What I will say is instead of all this theoretical discussion that boils down to, "I like this setting therefore can't live without it and to be without it is tantamount to the game completely collapsing" why not give it a practical test. As I suggested, prove to me that no respawn timer deeply impacts a match in the way you suggest. Load up asylum, turn respawn timer to 0, rest of the settings MM default. Then play the same game with the respawn timer. Or load up a Halo 3 map, the same discussion applies there. If the two matches could be video captured for comparison, all the better. Such a request is already weighted toward bias (if all the people playing the game already think the respawn timer is essential to having fun or a true competitive match) but at least it gives practical perspective. And to Nutduster who thinks that a player they just killed spawning next to where they are is an event that happens constantly...lol what maps do you play on? Let's assume for the sake of argument that case you mentioned regarding if you die then instantly respawn and throw a grenade to where that player was. Let's just ignore that grenades don't instantly explode the moment they are thrown or that the player in that area wouldn't be able to run away if they saw it coming. Let's ignore that unless that player who killed you was camping then they probably moved on or are fighting other people so waiting that extra few seconds to then throw that grenade would probably be meaningless anyway. I guess once you ignore all those things I can see how deeply the gameplay is affected every second of the game.
Good thing I only really play minigames anymore then because I got tired of not being able to do a damn thing once I got 'spawn trapped' and usually just ended up putting my controller down and going to take a **** for the rest of the game.
You can't. Why? Because it's never been an option (unless modded into a gametype). Why? Because it's awful and doesn't work in Halo. You must have played CoD, I'm sure you have. When you kill someone in CoD, what are your thoughts? Your thoughts are "yay, my KD is better" and "one more til my killstreak". Your thoughts are never "good, now they're one man down". Why is this? Because map control is utterly irrelevant unless it's domination, essentially. This is far from the case in Halo where map control is everything. You can complain that only the most competitive players care about map control but that's hardly the case. I'm no MLGProkid, but when I play, I play to win. Winning in Halo involves controlling weapons and controlling the map. If I'm moving for the rockets that are about to spawn, I want to take down as many of the other team's members as possible so I can more easily grab em. If my teammate is pinned down and weak, I want to take down the other team so he can escape. If I'm trying to move forward into a better position, I want to take people down so I can move without being shot. If I want to kill anyone on the entire map, I want to be in a 2 on 1 situation, not a contant even match. There is so much importance to be had on static spawn times, it isn't even funny. It has nothing to do with MLG or hyper competitives, it is literally the difference from a competitive shooter and an arcade shooter. Not only that, but giving the player the ability to control their spawning (delay it by not pressing X, or spawn instantly) is stupid. A player should be punished for dying, not be given the ability to take a break from a bad combat situation or jump right back in to help their teammates, depending on their whim. That's ridiculous.
i dont see what i video of cod has to do with halo. in 4v4 team slayer, even if a person spawns 2 or 3 seconds earlier, they'll still be spawning halfway across the map, most likely away from their teammates if theyre teammates are already engaged in battle. a good team will still able to take advantage of that time they have to trudge across the map for map or weapon control.
You can typically get to the action in Halo from any spawn point on a map in under ten seconds. Three seconds is a third of that time. So a three second respawn delays a person by 1/3 of pretty much the max time it takes them to get back into battle. Add sprint in there and damn. You're telling me you're okay with killing someone in long (rocket) hall on the pit, push forward to help your teammate out and have the guy you just killed instantly spawn in shotty, sprint his ass off and be back to you by the time you're at second BR? You have no problem with that?
In reach, you can get off a full sprint in between you killing someone and them respawning. Assuming Halo4's sprint is even remotely the same, how is that not a significant distance? I can get from asylums starting spawn to the middle of the map with a full sprint.
I think that it just does more bad than good. Think about it, Reach's spawns aren't that great sometimes and that's giving the system 3-5 (or more) seconds to think about it. Spawning instantly is just going to cause unnecessary chaos and take all penalties out of dieing. I watched TheHaloCouncil tonight and they made some valid points as to why they think this style spawning will only appear in FFA gametypes. I hope.
As for the ARG, I remember seeing frankie somewhere confirm that it won't happen. He said that at the time bungie did it, it was original but now so many people have copied the idea and used it, it isn't original and therefore won't be done. Interesting as it implies that they will have some kind of unique marketing scheme. X to respawn will still have a countdown timer on it for one so it partly counteracts the idea of taking your time to freely pick a spawn. I think dismissing it on the concept of balance is a fairly bad idea. 343 said they had a good think about it, and obviously that would include the concept of balance. Probably a balance discussion is what lead to armour lock not being included. They did a good job of balancing reach, so I really don't think that it will be overpowered. Just.. different.
Yep, pretty much this. 343 have been pretty good at listening to the community since they took over Reach. While I have no idea what they're playing at with the Title Update only being in 50% of the playlists, I applaud them for addressing things people had issue with. If it doesn't work, 343 will more than likely fix it. I think this still boils down to people overanalysing. Like when Reach's beta trailer showed "Spartans vs. Elites", and some people seemed to think that meant all MP was now race-based.
I may have misinterpreted, but either way the point stands. What you're describing isn't even an idealized environment to competitive players. It's NOT what team slayer is at its core. Your argument is proceeding from a foundation of your own invention. It's only a small handful of DMR wizards that think all of Halo should be octagon. For the record I'm all about a practical perspective. Like I've already said, I doubt I'll have a strong opinion on this until I've experienced it - probably hundreds of games worth. On the other hand, I also don't see anything wrong with intelligent gamers who have played thousands of hours of various FPSes talking theoretically, and to be honest, I kind of think it's the refuge of the scoundrel to claim otherwise whenever it's convenient. What maps do I play on? Same ones as you. Let's see here. Asylum is a matchmaking favorite with static spawns, yes? Each team has basically these spawn areas: rocks, base, courtyard, snipe, carbine, ring2. If I move into enemy territory and kill a guy in or near his base, four of the six places he can possibly respawn are easy for him to throw a 'nade at me from the exact point he respawns, without moving; the only ones that aren't are courtyard (he'd have to first move 15 feet to get around snipe and through the pillars) and ring2 (which is seldom-used for spawning anyway - it's basically an emergency outlet spawn; not sure if that's because of respawn zones or, more likely, just a function of the physical location). Killing someone at snipe is nearly the same: from there you can be naded from every position except rocks and carbine, and the location is a serious 'nade-trap to boot. In both cases, the few seconds it takes him to respawn may be critical for me to get shields back, move to cover, reload my weapon, or get to the health pack. Saying it happens "constantly" may be a bit of an exaggeration. But I am an aggressive player. I always move into enemy territory if I am able. Most games on Asylum involve me dodging 'nades from people who just respawned and know where I am, approximately. If the players I just killed were respawning instantly, a grenade-throw away, then yes, I am much more likely to die, and this position I've fought for becomes far less valuable. The rest of what you said is nonsense. I can always dodge or run away from grenades, but you know damn well that (at least in Reach) this is not easy to do if the person throwing the grenade is either good at it, or just gets lucky. On many maps, certain hotspot areas just catch grenades and it's impossible to get away from them - like most of Zealot's outer ring, the snipe tower and base on Asylum, the lift rooms and adjacent third floor area on Countdown, basically everywhere on Sword Base, etc. etc. If you don't think a few seconds here and there makes a big difference in the outcome, then you're just willfully blind, or you never move into enemy (or even neutral) territory much. And it's not just grenades. If I kill a guy in his territory, his teammates are more likely to be nearby, and the game gives them a big red X to follow to find me. I have to get moving, but I have no shields. This situation is already difficult to survive - you can take less damage than the person that's coming for you, and he has a better idea where you are than you do of him (at least until motion trackers come into play). If the guy you just killed were to insta-spawn not far away from him - something that happens often in Reach, because teammate proximity is treated as the heaviest-weighted variable for respawning, and the radius of negative influence for your own death has been demonstrated to be fairly small - then your difficult situation becomes a nearly impossible one. Again, a few seconds may mean everything. This may not occur "constantly" (forgive my use of hyperbole, I should've known you'd latch on to it) but it would occur REGULARLY by almost any measure. Multiple times per game, in most team slayer games. -- Oh, and as chrstphrbrnnn said, there is no instant respawn in Reach. The test you're proposing isn't possible without a modded gametype. And I think it's sadly telling that you apparently didn't even know that.
I want more options for the custom game radars. We should be able to choose between the normal movement radar and a radar that goes off only if someone shoots or grenades. Also does anybody know if the grenade launcher is back?
The grenade launcher is one of those changes to Halo that everyone can get on board with. I really hope it returns unchanged.
Nade launcher needs to be nerfed minorly. Atm if you so much as touch them with your first shot, you can whip out your DMR and finish them off even if they were shooting you the whole time. It needs a smaller blast radius so if someone dodges it they can win the fight like they deserve to. If the person with the nade launcher hits them just right, then they deserve the kill. If I'm making sense.