1. no. what are you? in denial? If you're not reacting, then why are you attacking your opponent rather than their points of view? --- shanon used the word generalisation, so you jumped on it and regurgitated it three times. reactive, no? 2. Your vulgarity is implicit. thus my use of infer. As i said above, you were fast to set judgment on the pople you were debating with, rather than the debate at hand. 3. You keep using the word assumption. I doubt you have a full grasp of what it means, as you keep repeating the word to try and illude otherwise. Evolution and Carbon Dating are proven. Carbon Dating -Now, evolution, is a pretty undeniable fact. You try telling me, as eloquently put by Dara O'Briain: How could a God who made all the stars and creatures on the Earth yet make man, who still bites the inside of his cheek? These little inanities of daily life just put any other theory to bed; If god forbade man from so many things, why give him such curiosity? If it is forbidden to do sexual acts outside of procreation, why is there such thing as morning wood? - if you are to say radioactivity is assumption, you must be assuming all your arguments into the internet for us to see. You are in denial of fundamental science, yet you are in contact with it enough to enjoy halo. In lieu of this argument, for you will most undoubtably deny without any consideration, i will put forward this: Putting down atheism/science as assumption only furthermore indicates lack of strength in theism, for if atheism/science is assumption, theism is as so. if not, (still) more so. 3. So tell me, do you go ahead and stone people? I strongly doubt that you follow the letter of the bible so: A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB) Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT) As in all the churches of the holy ones, women should keep silent in the churches, for they are not allowed to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. But if they want to learn anything, they should ask their husbands at home. For it is improper for a woman to speak in the church. (1 Corinthians 14:33-35 NAB) If anyone comes to me without hating his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, and even his own life, he can not be my disciple. (Luke 14:26 NAB) i shall stop there as the list goes on and on. So tell me how these direct extracts can be interpreted any other way than evil. Religion is a thing of the past. Morals are much more complex. We have ethics. We are far more complex societies than those in the past. We are capable of communicating across the planet in a blink of an eye. Are you going to say that because the bible does not condemn child pornography on the internet that it is not wrong? Humans have known right from wrong long before a monotheistic god, let alone a christian one.
You said we shut out the religious, and i am arguing to the contrary. I don't know what i have said in the past week that has made me appear as though i have a closed-mind toward religion.. almost everything i have cited has been religious based. How about the fact that light takes a million years to escape from the center of the Sun. That has got to dispute with your 6,000 year-old universe.
Yeah, when the response is enough to fill a page by itself I'm not going to continue discussing the topic anymore. Too many people, none of whom would change their minds unless overwhelming evidence from a source they themselves trust personally told them to. Thanks to the one guy who actually provided some evidence though. (And I guess the Wikipedia guy, although he misunderstood my quotations)
this thread isnt for changing minds, its for finding the final debate. the fact you've given up puts you in the same league as radiantrain, but at least she was honest by saying she exhausted herself, rather than denying an argument simply because it's difficult and saying its down to the number of words in it.
That, to me, is a cop-out. I can understand not wanting to respond to every single post, so don't; respond to the ones which bring up the best points. More than anything, we're trying to understand what logic you see in religion if you're basing your argument from a logical standpoint. And yet, if you aren't using a logical standpoint, then there is no point in arguing, since ignoring logic is the basis of close-mindedness.
Theism requires faith, religion requires faith. There isn't much of a logical standpoint to go by unless it's backed with observations. I don't think any of us have tried to prove God's existence, but rather try to show you that the Bible was never intended for manipulation, control, and murder. Rather the original purpose was that of harmonious intent. Jesus was a good guy, I believe he existed and did good things, maybe not walk on water, or turn water to wine. I believe he preached forgiveness, equality, and that his positive attitude helped people recover from injuries. The logic I'm trying to use, and I think all the theists in here isn't to prove God's existence... It's simply impossible to prove that anyways. I believe the logic I use is coming from what is written on the Bible...
expectations and reality are hardly the same thing, the issue is some things as open to interpretation as a religious scripture or whatever you follow can be abused, has been abused, and will continue to be abused.
its perfectly fine and good for you to hold religion in a personal manner, to bring comfort to yourself. but many people wield it in offensive ways. that has lead to opinions forming that religion is abuse of mind and freedom of thought - it's why there are some serious militant atheists out there.
Here's my issue with that: If the Bible was just that, nothing but forgiveness and equality, then I think that I speak for many people when I say that most atheists wouldn't have a problem with it morally. And luckily, in the modern day, most Christians are religious for those reasons purely. However, this does not change what is written in the Bible. There are still plenty of writings that promote racial degradation, sexism, and other horrific acts of human ignorance. Carl Sagan was one of my favorite people of all time, mainly because of his philosophy; why not just be a good person? A good judge of character, to me, is someone who can be a good person without the threat of Hell looming over them. THAT is a good person, and that is what all people should strive to be, yet some find motivation for being good fairly difficult without being told what to do by an omnipotent power. Religion, in any form, is a disgrace to human dignity. It is making yourself a slave to a power that you cannot explain. It is making yourself a slave to ignorance. Free will is not free will if it is given to you; you are still judged the day you die. Religion is a shroud of silver linings - the preachers and priests emphasize the good, but there's still the dark, ominous cloud which looms over the entire philosophy of religion, the core of it and all that is wrong with it. Religion served an excellent purpose thousands of years ago, when everything was scary and mysterious. It unified people and controlled them by embracing their fears. In today's world, though, where science is expanding exponentially, it has no purpose. It is a poison to progress and a deterrent to understanding. Religion is an old, decrepit tool that no longer has any place or purpose in today's world. That's my view on it.
Actually there isn't a logical stantpoint until religion can be backed up by any evidence whatsoever. I do know of quite a few points but so far none of you have provided anything that your bishops and church leaders would have provided. You guys are actually undermining religion more than you are providing grounds for it. I'm sorry to burst someone's false consolation but that is exactly what the Bible has been used for since conception. I'm not even going to source all of the things that the Old Testament provides warrant for because i've written them at least 3 times. But here is a nice quote of genocide against those that denounced worship; I'd just like to point out that if the Amalekites survived this ordeal, it's quite likely Judaism would never have taken hold. And without Judaism there would have been no Islam or Christianity. And to think atheism is just a genocide away from religion. Another misconception that has been pushed by Methodists. "Gentle Jesus meek and mild". People seem to forget things associated with him. It wasn't until Jesus appeared that we were greeted with the idea of eternal hell-fire. I just want you to think for a second if the countless children who have been scarred and tormented by this concept is really a good thing.
Maybe if you cherry-pick. The bible endorses slavery, genocide, lesser rights for women, violence towards gays, religious persecution, infanticide, murder, rape, e.c.t. Helping a stranger seem inconsequential next to the kind of ****ed up **** the bible allows.
I just said there can be no logical standpoint on religion because it is mostly faith. The Bible isn't much of a good source either, unless we go through interpretation, in which case it is more faith... Also Christianity prohibits idolatry, there are no bishops in Christianity. I don't ever recall reading these things on my Christian Bible... Bleh... I've got nothing... I am not scarred or tormented by the idea of hell and heaven. In fact, on the average day I don't think much about it. Using your logic here would imply that discipline is also something that will scar a child for life. Discipline might not be as severe, but the concept of heaven or hell isn't exactly something you can perceive as a child to begin with. Again I don't ever remember reading this, or seeing it in a bible. I do remember all the positives though, and that is love, and do good. You're cherry-picking too my dear. You just completely ignored the positives, and you probably always do when debating. [br][/br]Edited by merge: I beg to disagree, religion is being viewed more positively now. There will always be radicals, but those are in countries where the youth is naturally uninformed and persuaded by higher powers. In most 1st world countries Christians just follow the scripture for the good, and the good alone. What... Militant Atheists... That's extreme hypocrisy... I don't believe there is much to fear in a 1st world country in being an Atheist. I also completely and absolutely agree with your first sentence. I have never seen an extreme christian and I generally don't care what faith you follow, or lack thereof. Might be Florida, or my school. But generally no one cares about that stuff. A good person doesn't exist... That is why men like Aristotle argued that we naturally seek a form of Government... Because we are incapable of good without a guide. Sorry, it's late and I have to get going. [br][/br]Edited by merge: Bleh... I suck at debating... I'm sorry guys, I feel like just put personal opinions... But I don't like to sit back either...
^As for not "reading those bits" is hard to not at least hear about them, just look at all the signs Westboro Baptist Church patrons make with various bible verses against homosexuality. Or the writings of many of our founding fathers who believed slavery was justified under god (because of what was written in the bible). Islam is as anti-woman as it gets and the Qur'an isn't too far derived from verses in the Bible as well as the Salam Witch trials which were all about how women were seen as carriers of evil spirits. Not saying you shouldn't get the positive messages out of the Bible and use that to give you comfort, just saying ignoring the other things in the Bible as if they weren't there isn't healthy either.
I ignore the positives, and I DIDN'T just reference the parable of the Good Samaritan? You reply to Matty, who just quoted 1 Samuel 15:1-8, and you've still never read anything in the bible that condones genocide? You know how to read correct? I'm feel sorry for you that you're so selfish you can't understand the point of cooperation without cosmic reward.
I had the same question, it deals with the evolution of society. God "using different tactics." I'd like people to acknowledge this because I think this thread has helped me specify my views a lot: I've lived in Asia, the USA, and when I was very young, Europe and Africa. I have visited local, Christian villages in Tanzania, I have visited the Killing Fields and learned about the atrocities of the Pol Pot regime, i've helped build houses in the Philippines for Habitat for Humanity, I've met "undercover" pastors from mainland China, risking their lives to spread the word of God, I've met some of the most oppressed Christians from Myanmar who show the utmost happiness, nevertheless, I've been to Indian worship services on the Ganges, yet I am only eighteen years old. I can't say that I haven't had a very privileged childhood. For that I thank my parents and God. However, when I hear someone categorize Christianity and religion altogether as being wholly wrong, I can only say that that's a huge misconception. I rely on faith for purpose and meaning. It brings me joy, happiness, self-fulfillment, and encourages me to reach out to people. I rely on faith... trusting. I may sound like an ultra-conservative Christian nut, I'm not entirely sure, but Christianity has always been part of who I am, no matter what people have to say after this. I also believe God is something only the innermost reaches of ourselves can understand. Those are my views and I think that's as clear as I can state 'em.
Out of curiosity, would you not have helped those same people that needed help had it not been for a major religion to sanction it?
Can I call a truce? Being a Christian, even I myself can't answer half the questions that oppose my faith. Really it all comes down to whether you want to have faith in a God or not. It's just all of our unique mindsets, and really, nothing is going to go anywhere here for either side. No Christian here will really be able to change someone's opinion, but the same goes for an Atheist..... Look at it, has anyone's opinions really CHANGED at all since before this forum?
The point of these kind of debates is not necessarily change someones mind cold turkey as with a topic as engrained as this that is just something that is not likely to happen. By challenging every belief someone has to make them really question why they believe the way they do it forces someone to at least take stock of why they feel like they do. This will either drive someone to hold their beliefs stronger or it will result in a seedling of doubt which could over time result in someone casting off their past beliefs. For people raised in a religious family in which they had no choice but to accept what their parents told them for much of their youth it takes these kind of discussions which the child will eventually start hearing (especially if they go on the internet) and allow them to make an informed decision on what they really want to believe in. Matty, transhuman, and others would say that anyone that chooses to believe in religion is making the wrong choice, I look at it as if that is their choice then they figured out what importance can be derived from that religion (faith) and if that is their decision so be it.