This is a commonly cited claim to try and take the big bang as a scientific study and mutilate it so that it proposes theism. You don't even end up proposing theism, like i've already said a hundred times. How does this argument validate your supposed connection with this creator and what it wants of you and me. But alas, science has known you can create something out of nothing for more than a century. Quantum mechanics is actually the most well understood field in physics, and it supports the evidence for all of the things we know and the things we theorize about the creation and formation of the universe. At present, we know how the universe behaved in areas down to the a very small fraction of a econd. Nobody has any evidence for behaviour earlier than this time, and nobody thinks it originated from a singularity. NOBODY. The current conception is that the universe arose from quantum fluctuations, again something we create and observe everywhere. It depends on which theory you want to study about how those fluctuations arose [M-theory or Higgs theory for example] but this is the current model of the universe, and most physicists are in agreement. You are not allowed to say or support that the universe arose from nothing, because it was not even studied in the scientific data that supported the big bang.
But the only reason we have either the potential or need for growth is, once again, because God decided this. Why is it always turned around as if God is somehow doing us a favour, when he defined us as creatures which need treating like this? I'd argue that you haven't answered my question. If there has to be something to create something, how does God exist? That argument only ever puts the question off one more level, it never actually answers it. I don't mean to sound difficult, but this is a thread specifically created to discuss religion, I can't think of many better places.
Lol... I saw this thread and thought (I bet I'll see Matty in this thread) As he already knows, I don't believe in anything. I think he said I'm a Nihilist(?) or something... but yeah, I'm open to discussion and willing to listen to peoples beliefs as long as they aren't trying to force their views and beliefs onto me.
"I used to curse those with shoes, until I met a man without feet" Anon. That's an analogy I think that's as concise as possible on the issue. Greed seems to a be superlative of humanity. I could argue that God does not exist on this plane, meaning he does no abide to the rules of this universe. Therefore in theory he could in fact, be omnipotent and omniscient. Because the rules of infinity do not apply on this universe, but may apply outside of it. This thread was created to express our religions, not really debate them.
Concise? Really? I'd appreciate some elaboration tbh. If creation requiring a creator is only true of rules within the universe, then the creation of the universe itself is no more subject to this requirement than any God on any other plane is. Basically, you still haven't answered the question of how God can exist without having been created, whereas the universe cannot. *Checks OP* Orly?
He can't answer the question... no one can. If they could, then debates like these wouldn't occur all over the world and cause wars and such about who's beliefs are right and who's are wrong etc... Silly Pegasi is silly! EDIT: Please change all the "He"s to "She"s.
an answer can be right or wrong... here is something: if theists are to disagree with atheist view, then they themselves are disagreeing with their own god who made atheists so. Also, i dont see how anyone can affiliate themselves with the mainstream religions, as all of them have blood on their hands, and not feel guilty or insecure in their faith. How can so many religions have so much apocryphal views within themselves? So much of the official holy word is wrong in the most basic sense immediately. to suggest that man was created from dust and a woman from man? it already sounds flimsy to believe that the account given is true. To find that the same book with the same assurance by the religious organisations posits the existence and life of jesus makes me question why on earth would anyone stand firm in their theism.
The fact that the universe is comprised of untold billions of galaxies, each containing billions of stars like the sun which are capable of supporting life such as that which exists on our planet is all I personally need to disprove to myself the argument that we were created or guided by a greater power. How the universe began doesn't really bother me as in my opinion it doesn't have any relevance on current or future events and will likely never be answered or understood. The idea of an afterlife seems to me to be too similar to the stories children are told to make them do as they're told as does some parts of the christian bible for example the commandment 'though shalt love your mother and father'. In shot while I accept that it is possible that a higher power could have created the first matter and dark matter I cannot accept the idea that there is a higher power dictating our everyday lives and even if I did I would refuse to be affiliated with any religious organisation because of their history's of corruption, a very ungodly trait. If you want a more detailed reason, I agree with most of the atheist's arguments out there which you have no doubt heard half a hundred times.
Firstly, if we take into consideration the notion of free will given to us by God, then we could in fact deny Atheists without being hypocrites. Unless we take into consideration Christian imposed moral that we must love thy neighbors and friends. As a liberal Christian I completely agree with our ten commandments, I don't care if you're an Atheist, or a Buddhist. So long as you're not Anti-Theist, or hateful towards me I will not hate you. You're mistaking the branches of Christianity with Christianity itself. You're also mistaking theism with religion. I've been leaning more towards an Agnostic-Christian belief in which Jesus did exist and preached good will along with God watching over the world. I do agree that Christianity's branches such as Catholicism preach hypocritical statements, such as bearing a cross, when idolizing God, or Jesus in any form is prohibited in the Bible. You have to understand two things, Catholicism does not represent Christianity as well as you would like it too, and that Christianity is incorruptible since Christianity does not have any leader's besides God himself, and the messiah. Any religion claiming to interpret God's will is hypocritical and constantly destroy's the true representation of what is Christianity. [br][/br]Edited by merge: I could counter that logic with the reverse interpretation. A universe so vast, with such great order seems to have design. Or Higher power. But how the universe began is a key question to a majority of religious institutes. Solving this question I believe would be enough to cripple the foundation of religion permanently. There will however be faith, that could survive any human exploitation. I think that among Atheists in particular there seems to be confusion between the purer Christian tree, and the rotting Catholic branch. Christian doctrine has never caused a single war, it is Catholicism that is corrupt and ungodly. It was the Popes, which Christianity prohibits that have killed people. Not Christianity. Catholics are hypocrites and unforgivably so. The Popes and Crusades have destroyed the Christian foundation of love, and forgiveness.
Christianity, does not tell you to have a leader interpret God's message. Sorry for the lack of clarity. Rather it is Catholics who have a Pope who "can hear God's will".
Everything you have said is trash. If it was given by God, it isn't free will then is it? The golden rule, do not do to another what you would not have done to yourself, actually does not derive from religion. You can find this in the analects of Confucius, which pre-dates the holy texts. I don't think we even need evidence for this claim. Do we not all think that this understanding is innate in us? Do you honestly believe our species would have survived against more than 100,000 years of natural competition if we had not realized that rape, murder incest and cannibalism were all bad? Do you honestly have such low esteem for the essence of humanity and human solidarity to say that we would not know morality, and what was good for us if it weren't handed down from a celestial dictator? First of all i disagree with you trying to coin liberal Christian. Quote Wikipedia all you like but there are only believers and non-believers. If you do not believe that Jesus died at the cross to absolve humanity from it's sin, it's responsibility, and that everybody was present at this instance, and for this all of humanity is created sick and demanded to be well, then you do not believe in Christianity. It took 20 years after the Nuremberg trial before the Catholic church conceded that it didn't blame the Jewish people for the death of Christ, so i should hope you think that the Catholic church doesn't represent itself as i would like, because it's been anti-Semitic for the last 2000 years. And i won't even bother with your plea against Corruption since you don't even care how offensive you are sounding to millions of people around the Globe. Despite being effortlessly corrupt, Catholic charity campaigns against violently against secular free enquiry, the empowerment of women and the use of contraception for the prevention of AIDS. Catholic charities aren't friends of the poor, they are friends of poverty. Rhetorical bullshit. If you knew anything about the science you were talking about you would be providing some sort of scientific principle, but instead you are just citing the same old watch-maker argument. The universe we live in may be vast, and there may be much we do not know, but we do know that so far the universe operates without the assumption of God. The universe does not need a God. But what about your argument? The flaw (among myriad) in your intelligent design argument is who designed the designer? Of course this leads to an infinite regress, but it clarifies the pointlessness of raising extraordinary claims with ordinary or no evidence. I can't believe how little you know about the conflicts that have engulfed Africa, South America and Eastern Europe, not to mention the ****ing Crusades. I'm not even going to bother with this one since you have completely missed the point on everything else. It is clear you don't mind offending hundreds of thousands of people who have had their lives destroyed by religious despots trying to bring the Messiah on.
Didn't ignore them, admitted defeat... Waved the white flag, resigned... Etc... Etc... I can't argue with facts regardless... [br][/br]Edited by merge: You see my entire argument was derived off of opinions, and some facts...
i'm here to see people address each others thought out points, i'm curious to see what goes on in everybody's head. when you say "lol, my opinions are trash" i get a hint of patronization as if Matty's words arent worth your time which bums me out since he brought up things my mind would never jump to. EDIT: ahhh much better
Twas more of my reason for defending it... Rather then to attack the opposition. [br][/br]Edited by merge: Matty's sophistication scares me, I believe he knows a ton more on the issue, so I just resigned right then and there then come out looking like a bigger fool then I already came out to be.