I have completed an 8v8 invasion map and gametype aptly named “Entire FW Invasion”. This map, especially the third phase, is exceptional, but I do need to test its framerate. If the number of objects on the map at any given time, in view or not, affects matches, I would also like to try testing a version where there are only at most 2/3 of the objects at any time because they are phase spawned(P2, P3) or gated (P1 objects disappear at the end of P2). I might tweak things slightly for balance, such as the distances of spawns from objectives, the placement or existence of weapons and/or cover and/or pathways, as well as loadouts. I would not be surprised if I do not have to change anything because I have put a lot of thought into this map. If you are satisfied with the amount of time that it takes to get anywhere on MM BTB or Invasion maps you will be comfortable with each phase. The only things that players have to be aware of before they play the map is that Elite defenders take advantage of teleporters to get from phase to phase while spartans drive with phase spawned vehicles, the core/bomb carrier has 50% damage resistance (the 150% speed makes the bomb much faster than the core, which actually works well for this gametype), and that some weapons and vehicles spawn after the start of each phase for the sake of gameplay (it wasn’t simply to spawn things immediately in a phase with a long spawn time- it took extra pieces to ensure a certain range of spawn times for these items in P2 and P3 due to the nature of phase spawning). There is more depth to this map than other successful invasion maps, and the loadouts in the custom gametype are fun and balanced. The vehicle and weapon set includes everything except the spiker, hammer, and gauss hog, yet I am sure that they are balanced. I predict that this will have a decent replay value because of all of the possibilities, but the flipside is that this map won’t be mastered on the first playthrough, though I think players will be comfortable on their second time. The phases take place in three separate sections and there are neutral weapons because the elites just managed to take the region before the Spartans launched this counterattack, but I think even the most strict, conventional invasion theorists should look past that. The gametype is Territories, CTcore and assault, with the latter 2 phases lasting 5 min, one more than the default, though that may amount to 0-4 min extra for the entire 2 round match. At the start of the round, ODST style dropped Spartans (no, I didn’t have the budget, use your imagination) have their backs against the edge, hoping to deactivate defenses in the (coliseum) control room, while the second island phase gives each team a roughly equal chance (this could not be achieved perfectly) of getting neutral power weapons, as in BTB, while the third phase gives the elites enough time to position themselves against the Spartans in order to help make P3 the hardest. It won’t be easy to see how the gametype complements the map in forge mode, but a custom run-through even with only two players will tell all much faster (the spawns should be noticeable even though one player can only access half of them). Each phase is heavier, larger and more tactical than the last, such that communication and coordination is essential to win the last round. To aid in this, I placed flag stands to represent the fireteam numbers in front of fireteam-specific spawns so that each player would know his/her fireteam, allowing for simple, communicable fireteam-oriented plans. Vehicles are central in this map; they not only give players a foothold on the entire map (compared to the fireteam spawning system, which gives fireteams a foothold in one area), they are powerful enough to stop the opposing side from progressing as long as they remain intact and occupied- a destroyed enemy vehicle is a window of opportunity that a team must exploit before it respawns, even if it is only 30(+about 10 after it is destroyed) seconds. What I included about this map in this preview is not an attempt to convey its depth- this is simply the most general information to give you a reason to look into the map. I do not have a link or pictures, but a file share search for pat7654 is just as easy as following a link if one is going to look at the map in-game. I would love to hear opinions from invasion enthusiasts on this map, from constructive criticism to approval to whether or not it should be abandoned. If you are interested in testing the map and gametype please befriend me on Xbox live. I don’t know how fortunate I will be in getting 16 players at once to test this even once, though. This is the area that the spartans have to cross from their spawns into the coliseum. This area is divided symmetrically in half, and spartans cannot congregate immediately to overwhelm one side easily. There are individual bare objects, but this map was not the kind that could afford aesthetic touches. My goal was to make it not look ugly while making it playing excellently, and so you will not find impressive architecture. The weak short range automatic weapons in every first phase invasion area require single scattered objects for a paintball type of combat, but there is a DMR per spartan half and 3 NRs on the balcony. If you as an elite spawn on the balcony, I recommend that you use an NR or the turret. The Elite initial spawns are at the halfway point in the map while their spawn zones are at the back of the coliseum- hold the spartans here for 50 sec so that incoming defense supplies will remain secure! This isn't everyone's favorite type of playstyle, but I think it compares well to other maps' first phases. Weapons outside of coliseum: 2 nade launchers (closer to elites-2 spare clips), 2 shotguns (0 spare clips), 2 DMRs( 0 spare clips), 1 MG turret, 50 sec in a hog and goose It's hard to see, but there is a human turret in the sniper nest and a plasma turret on the balcony. Notice how the balcony extends outside of the coliseum- Elites will have the entire enemy team in their face constantly if they let spartans team-spawn here. The coliseum is not exactly symmetrical, though it is somewhat divided. These show both control panels (territories). They are multi-leveled- I did this to encourage traffic on the floor so that the upper level would not be too crowded, but it creates an interesting dynamic- spartans have more options for cover and both teams need to be more aware of possibilities. The jetpack also has some interesting applications for taking either territory, too. Notice that there is a small hole next to the upper terr platforms. The middle upper platform is a powerful vantage point, but some covenant weapons are barely effective from that point to the surrounding walkways. Weapons: 50 sec in: 2 concussion rifles (1 spare clip) (lateral underpass of middle platform, connects lower territories) 1 sword (top of middle platform), 1 shade turret, 2NRs (0 clip) 1 ghost another ghost at 80 sec in If the spartans win, they will have to turn back and drive down a steep newly spawned bridge to the island. Barely enough vehicle seats will spawn, so load up your vehicle with passengers if you're the driver (3 new geese+1 new hog= 9 new seats). A large teleporter will spawn (it doesn't include territories or the sword, so spartans shouldn't be caught in it) so that elites will simply have to walk to the island- the liberal teleporter size is meant to reduce deaths in the transition to keep arrival times as equal as possible for the 2nd phase. This is the core side of the island. The destination is the top of the mountain. Both sides will have enough vehicles to rush both the core and the neutral power weapons simultaneously- The power vehicles do not spawn for the first minute, so these can be effectively contested. Overlooking the core side is a plasma launcher. There is a jet pack accessible rock underneath it. Mountain tunnel houses a 2-clip Rlauncher. I tried to facilitate movement around the core, there is a spartan outpost and a rock each with a DMR. The core carrier must choose between man cannoning to the tunnel or walking back the spartan side (communicate)- he only has 50% damage resistance- make use of those drop shields. The mountain and the tunnel are vital vantage points, so the center of the map will likely be contested from all angles, considering the positioning of spawns. The core must be carried up a rocky slope visible from the spartan base, and so flow will shift from the core side to the mountainous side. There is a 2 spare clip sniper rifle opposite the core side, on the raised metal bridge by the rock bridge- totaling 3 neutral power weapons on 120 sec spawn times. Spartan base weapons/vehicles: 2 rockets(0 clips), snipers (0) all 180 sec, so use ammunition carefully, 1 rocket hog 30 sec after a minute in: 1 falcon 60 sec Elite base: 2 focus rifles, 2 FRG(0 clips)- all 180 sec, 1 ghost 30 sec, 1 rev 60, 1 hog 60 (along with 2 human turrets to counter the falcon- cov projectiles are too slow) after a min in: a banshee and a wraith, 60 sec If the spartans win, a huge teleporter will spawn by the elite base and vehicles will be revealed to spartans to drive through the massive cave. This will give elites time to find their vehicles ( there are 2 tele destinations)and settle the 3rd phase area. the core carrier will be teleported to alaska- if he/she goes to the bomb, he/she will find a scorpion. This picture looks out from the spartan spawns (two of them are shown-behind the semi-circular inclines. These, as well as the elite spawn cover pieces, will not be seeing any action, thus I made them simple. There are no weapons at spawns in this phase. The spartans have to carry a 50% resistance 150% speed 25% jump passenger-accessible bomb from the bottom of the canyon to a communications sattelite on monatana. There are two points, either of which the carrier must pass through: a plateau above a cave in the canyon or a freight teleporter at the end of the canyon. Thus, Elites must defend these spots or meet the bomb carrier before the carrier gets to them. If the carrier gets past, he/she will have to cross one of two bridges to get to montana and then the detonation site. The middle of the canyon is not meant for infantry traffic, obviously. There is a sniper rifle on the plateau (0 clips 60 sec) and a Focus rifle and plauncher (30 sec, 120 sec) on the structure atop Montana, each has a DMR (the "anti tank explosive" loadouts do not have DMRs, so these can be considered as power weapons). A laser spawns sometime after 2 min on an incline on the bridge between the two sniper weapons, such that it can be contested (map control is given to the elites by the time spartans arrive). This map is appropriately large because assault is not a two step phase-when you get there, you're done. I like to think of those two defense points as the boundary between halves of the phase, much like touching a core or territory. Teams can hold on to positions that they occupy through team spawning and reinforcing those areas. To take a new position, a team will have to use more than one fireteam and attack from more than angle. Notice how each stronghold (sniper, focus, teleporter) is vulnerable to multiple angles of attack. Some are best used by vehicle, some by foot (sprint/evade), and some by jetpack (look for rocks). Again, destroying enemy vehicles is an objective itself. Elites have weaponry to stop hogs in their tracks, flip them over and obliterate them (like spartans) so that a bomb can't simply be driven past an occupied point. Spawning in vehicles and with infantry is what makes this phase possible. Why not spawn with an anti-vehicle sidearm (PP,GL,CR,FRG,RL) in a teammate's vehicle to outgun enemy vehicles, including a tank? This map utilizes spawning and vehicles to their fullest extent. teleporter to alaska Spartan Vehicles- normal and rocket hog 30 sec, Falcon in phase 2 position with p3 spawn 60, scorpion 60 Elites- 3 revs 30, banshee and wraith 30. Even the wraith can boost its way to montana with some time. I might add more info later.
No invasion map encompassing all of Forge World has ever, or will ever work. Invasion is meant to expand, not take place in three separate areas. No matter how much thought you've put into a map beforehand, you will always need to make changes to it upon testing. A map isn't done until it's been tested numerous times in a row without any problems occuring (that's based not just on your opinion, but that of others as well). An invasion map will likely take at least three months to test thoroughly depending on how often you can test it, and and how well you can respond to feedback and implement changes. You should also post pictures to show people what you're talking about.
No...just no. 1- You have no pics 2- These cannot be done, too big 3- I'm glad for no pics because it makes your criticism less..critical Sorry try again next time!
And then he posts pics. Yeah, give up on this. It won't work. Forge World was meant to be divided so mapmakers had variety in location, it wasn't built to be connected all in one map. Even if the budget allowed, it wouldn't work because of the canvas design.
Well, so much for Christmas cheer... It is fine if you want to make a map for invasion that spans the entire FW. Some make invasion support for their 4v4 maps, others for 2v2, which also are not true invasion. but according to them it is invasion anyways.
FW is just to big to make a good invasion map because the budget wouldn't allow perfect detail for a map that big there would be to much frame rate lag and it wouldn't be that fun because of the size
Encompassing all of Forge World would require teleporters between phases, and just wouldn't be in a layout that would work. You would basically end up with three different maps that were all poorly connected. While a 4v4 map could support a scaled-down invasion experience (which still would not be the same type of invasion that you see in matchmaking, but can still work quite well), this wouldn't even be a scaled-up one. This would be a broken-up, poorly-connected one. On top of all this, you simply can't put enough detail into a map that large, and would end up with open expanses of unmodified Forge World, which tend not to be fun to play on, much less work for invasion gameplay.
What is "and then he posts pics" supposed to mean? When I said that I would want to hear whether or not it should be abandoned, I expected it to be with an explanation why after the map was downloaded. Naughty Badger somehow knew that he was going to be able to criticize the map just by looking at pictures. Not only is "explicitly rating or reviewing" a map (granted this is a preview) without downloading it arrogant, it is against the forum rules. Psychoduck- the "invasion is meant to expand" restriction is arbitrary. The MM maps completely abandon the first phase area. This is most likely because players start with DMRs in the second two phases- notice also that the DMR phases are used in BTB-; the need for different areas for different phases (or the same area for 2 phases) in those maps is influenced by the weapons and combat suited to those weapons. Bungie didn't create 3 invasion maps that also had to serve as BTB maps to create a mold that everyone had to follow when creating invasion maps, especially maps only for invasion, and not BTB or invasion slayer. Do you think that by telling others to follow this rule, they will make maps as good as the canvas maps? Think about what you are saying. Do you have a reason as to why 3 seperate areas is inherently bad, when it actually creates more diversity and less repetition in each match? You might not be able to pick out the nuances of what makes a good invasion map, but that doesn't mean that you should try to discourage others from exploring possibilities. The map is downloadable in-game through the reach file-share searcher; if you want to prove that it can't be done, tear the map itself to pieces.
I'll make sure I download the map, so I can confirm my suspicions. Anyways, the phase 1 area is never completely abandoned in any Bungie invasion map. The area often becomes a safe backfield spawn for the attackers. The reason invasion maps expand rather than move on altogether is to form a coherent map experience. Sure, variety is great, but it can be achieved within one play space. breaking the map up into three completely separate areas not only creates incoherence, but also wastes valuable resources. With such limited resources in forge, invasion map designers need to make every piece count. When you can only use 1/3 of your resources on any phase, you are limitng yourself quite a bit. Of course a map doesn't have to expand in the same way the Bungie invasion maps do. Summit, Hushed Apprentice and Island Complex are all good examples of this. Areas tend not to be left behind in these maps, but the maps still move to a new area each phase, rather than keeping phase 2 and 3 in the same area as the Bungie maps do. These maps still manage to feel coherent because the different areas are still connected and all feel like part of a bigger whole. I'll hold judgement on whether or not your map does that until I analyze it in forge, but making a map feel connected when the individual phases take place in completely different areas of Forge World, and are connected by teleporters would not work. As far as my "ability to pick up on nuances of what makes a good invasion map", I have two things to say to that. Firstly, I have been conceptualizing an invasion map for the past six months. This has including going over many other invasion maps, both good and bad, in an extreme amount of detail. I've tested invasion maps that span huge portions of Forge World before, and none have even come close to working. I've talked to several people, such as HWM Sarge, who have very in-depth understandings of how and why invasion works. All of this knowledge has combined to form my standing on this map. Secondly, I created one of the two invasion maps that have been featured on Forge Hub. I've devoted a lot of time to understanding invasion since I made my first attempt at an invasion map over a year ago. I don't discourage people from exploring possibilities. I despise people who have such a narrow-minded point of view to think, for instance, that deviating at all from the structure of Bungie invasion maps won't work. However, I've played several maps like yours, and none of them have come at all close to working.
Open expanses of modified FW- forget about my map, as this post is not referring to it- Hemorrhage and Paradiso are exactly that, and Hemorrhage gets chosen constantly. Pathways and cover- whatever intricate network of these elements- are not usually enhanced proportionally as the number of forge pieces increases. You forgers, even on large maps, preoccupy yourselves with aesthetics to the point where you have a distorted view of how pieces affect gameplay. That's what I've seen on this site. As for poorly connected areas, defending elites use a teleporter and spartans drive. This makes sense from a story perspective. These modes of travel between phases do not hurt gameplay at all. They add just add something new and inconsequential to the map. Perhaps driving would be appreciated by some players, as the transition is time relevant. It makes it seem as though a grander battle is unfolding (I don't mean grander than the previous phase, but grander than other invasion maps). I will consider using a kill zone instead of phase spawning the steep transition bridge if I decide to create a simple storyline for a map post. [br][/br]Edited by merge: The Bungie invasion map backfield spawns become drop off points for vehicles, but this is such an insignificant detail- in all 3 maps they could have been several meters (or whatever) behind the second phase spawns. The playspaces of the first phases are never actually contested again. The last time I looked at Summit, the first phase was also left behind. Perhaps I missed phase 3 spawns by the phase 1 area in the Hushed Apprentice, which I looked at a while ago. You should explain what you mean by coherence, because I cannot infer any substantial meaning from its use here. Whether or not my map makes sense is whether or not players can believe that there would objectives in a mission on different landmasses. Of course they could to the same extent that they understand the objectives of the other invasion maps. This seems to me to be the trivial point you're making with "coherence", correct me if I'm wrong. Anyway, the transition travel times take about 1/10 of the phase time. I hope you don't count the bare acres in the canyon and consider each of them a strike against the map- you wouldn't walk down the open middle of Hemmorhage, would you?
Dude, take a chill pill. Contrary to popular belief, many of "us forgers" know a thing or two about map design and don't just "preoccupy ourselves with aesthetics to the point where we have a distorted view of how pieces affect gameplay." Duck isn't trying to stomp down your map, and he does know quite a bit about invasion (as he said, we have both been studying it for several months) so it would pay to listen to what he said, whether you take the advice or not. Even if people haven't looked at the map there are things that can be told from the fact that it spans forge world on a limited budget. I can see from the pictures posted the map looks very sparse and I see a lack of cover in general. You say other's focus on aesthetics over gameplay, yet from the pictures I see neither. It's also a good idea to not yell at people for giving their thoughts on your map. Would it have been better if people had done a forge through of your map? Yes, but we don't have time to do that all the time (what with Christmas and being two of the 4-8 people in the Tester's Guild.) If you feel people are being unfair, at least be the bigger man and don't try to provoke those who comment; at least they went out of their way to say something about your map.
Sorry, I'll keep my voice down next time- also, this is now a minor point, but they didn't give me thoughts on my map. They gave me thoughts on other's maps. I do not expect that anyone will comment on my map, just that when they do, its relevant. In other words, I wasn't complaining that anyone didn't forge through, but I was responding to more than one comment about the same thing- nothing. Also, I honestly can't think of a way in which someone could "stomp down" a map more. They seemed pretty blunt and straightforward about that.
Yeah, a general rule of thumb is that when offered constructive criticism after asking for it, you kindly accept it, not attack the critic. I know that you're trying to defend your work, but in this case, you can't make this idea work. Sorry, but forge has limitations. Come up with a new idea, one that can actually work.
Well, the truth is sometimes there is not much you can say that will improve the map. I don't want to say it is totally impossible (though I want to) because I'm not looking at it until tonight, but the fact is not every map can be saved without a complete re-do. However, the map is still a success if you can learn from it and apply that to your next design. I'll post again after I've done a walkthrough with my thoughts.
@ OP Unfortunately bro, a full FW invasion just cant work out well. Its not your fault or based on your skill as forger, its the fact that the system only allows 10k budget and so many vailable pieces (to create an optimal, lag-free experience). Duckman and Shoeman know what theyre talking about. Any attempt to create a very large-scale map will result in a loosly connected, mediocre map desperately adherring to the set budget and item limit. I recommend continuing your forge on ths map, and when you decide to call it quits, look back, tke note, and learn from your experience a little.
I know it's buried in text, but I typed that a working version is in my fileshare. I know I will have to change it after testing, but you make it sound like it isn't structurally complete. It only works with the gametype in my fileshare. And what is it with phases being loosely connected?
Here, lemme demonstrate with a little text image: Normal-sized map connections |||Spawn--Phase 1--Phase 2-Phase 3||| That is usually the case for invasion maps (ex: Boneyard and Spire). See how the phases fit together in the boundaries very nicely transitioning smoothly (without much distance between them)? Entire FW map connctions |||Spawn-----Phase 1--------------------Phase 2-------------------Phase 3||| This connection is what you woud see if you tried to fit an invasion map inside the large boundaries of ForgeWorld. You see, there isnt enough of anything we have vailabe to cover this entire expance and make it engaging. I mean, if we could play with two teams of 24, make campaign like structurs and have full control over physical mechanics, it would be all fine. But we dont, and personlly i detest driving a falcon from the pillar to the canyon.
nothing to do with the map but if you wanted to make an invasion map that takes the whole forge world you could... 1. make an airfield map 2. do an unlimited banshee glitch 3. map the spartens defend cruiser ships, frigets, (soem humaniod ship) 4. make every obective to capture a spartan ship. 5. each sppartan has some good tool of destruction to take down each banshee that would be a pretty large map i guess... no one take that idea though, im not using it for invasion but im making a mini game kind of like that [br][/br]Edited by merge: hahaha all of these comments like "it cant be done' remind me of some show or movie where the main charector is about to attack some giant thing and everyone is telling him it cant happen anyways even if you do do a fw map, its just going to be too much walking even if theirs spawns, teleporters, and grav lifts. it ill just piss off people
I still say you should move the idea more to the area of Alaska-Montana and the canyon, similiar to how Summit set its areas up,. You can still use all the ideas you have in this map in a smaller area, but also make it better designed and funner to play. Sometimes its best to just pick out a couple areas to create a design, and think of it more as a BTB map than a Invasion map. Either way plenty of maps fail because of a few areas of its design, each area of a map can always be improved and this is the case with your map. I would take the area you have created inside the colliseum and move it to a area around the canyon, make it feel more forerunner or covenant however you think best fits your theme. I would love to see more invasion maps succeed, but they dont have to be overly large for me to have a enjoyable time. I prefer invasion maps that break up the action myself but the distance between phase areas in this map are just to much, it pretty much makes the previous phase area useless or just to far away to stay in the action. My advice is to ask these fine gentleman any questions you may have about what you can do and where you should do it in forgeworld, and I believe creating a area that is connected is better than one that isnt connected at all at the moment.
I still don't get why leaving phases behind is problematic. The first transition takes just over 20 sec for both teams, and the second transition takes just under 40 sec for the spartans, giving the elites time to settle the third phase area. The distance inbetween doesn't really matter as long as the travel time is kept under control, and the spawn zones are in the areas. Did you think that I was going to have one backfield spawn as the only spawn in the game? My only worry was that players that die at the start of the first transition have a few second headstart on the island. The walking times in the third phase are comparable to those of Hemorrhage. Because most of the vehicles in the third phase (6 seats per team) are at 30 sec (+ 10 sec after they are destroyed), players will be punished for losing their vehicle by having to go on foot towards an important control point once before their vehicle respawns. This usually takes just under 20 sec. They have the option to choose sprint or evade even though those loadouts lack an anti-vehicle weapon. But I have noticed a quality that Summit, The Hushed Apprentice and Island Complex have in common: they have an apparent theme and striking aesthetics. My map uses lone pieces that do not resemble architecture, and to me it looks comparatively ugly. If these many popular invasion maps look great, then I guess aesthetics are a prerequisite, even a justification. But I still disagree that lots of pieces are necessary to make natural geometry engaging from a gameplay perspective.