343 announces Reach Title Update in September (Updated OP)

Balance doesn't mean that every weapon is equally powerful. Some weapons are at best situationally powerful, and it's been that way since the original Halo. And I'm pretty sure you know that since earlier in this very thread, you were describing the precision weapons post-title update as "semi-power weapons." You can do a semantics dance all you want, but the fact is that some weapons simply are better than others, though most of them have specific uses that they are good for.

 

Missing with a rocket is almost irrelevant, For a rocket to be on par with a sword it only has to get CQC kills where it's near impossible to miss, So right there the rocket beats the sword because 1 rocket can get multikills.
But then the rocket gets the huge advantage of getting range and within that advantage adds more potential to miss which is still a huge advantage over a sword which doesn't have the choice of range(and therefor no chance to miss).

Here is anther almost irrelevant point but the sword can still waste ammo by hitting holograms doesn't happen often but still can.

It's much easier to get kills with the rocket launcher with the jetpack so that point is nullified.

5 ammo is fine but 10 is an obscene amount of ammo?, But removing the ammo removes the sustainability of the sword which is the only advantage it has over the rocket launcher and that would be bad for weapon balance.

 

Just read what Nutduster said.

 

It seems like the type of "balance" youre looking for would be impossible to achieve unless there were NO power weapons on the map and everyone had the same weapon. Power weapons are on the map to give a player a significant advantage over the other players. You can't try to balance them to to much or they would become useless. Like Nutduster said every power weapon has specific situation that works best for it. You wouldn't try to shoot someone across map with an AR, no you would use a DMR or Magnum. Every weapon has a specific use and purpose whether it be a utility weapon or a power weapon. Sure some are better all around like the rockets but you can only take two shots then you have a long reload time which is enough time for someone to kill you and take the rockets.

 

I believe the default playlists are balanced and the TU playlist is balanced but there not balanced in the same way. How do I differentiate between the two types of balance with a short phrase so I don't have to explain it every time, I do not know, So I use the word balance.(Maybe you know a better word I should use then chuck)

So we both know the TU's precision weapons are semi power weapons and weakens the rest of the sandbox which is still balanced but do you understand that, In the default playlist every weapon is equally powerful and that's how the default playlist is balanced and that's how it should stay.
If you take away that there is no point in having default playlists and TU playlists.

Power weapons are in a different category then normal weapons, All power weapons are balanced compared to each other and all normal weapons are balanced compared to each other.

So it's not impossible because default reach playlist has fairly good weapons balance between all power weapons and all normal weapons.

 

Really? Let's experiment. Let's play a ten-game series with out-of-the-box Reach settings where you get any regular non-power weapons you want EXCEPT DMR or needle rifle, and I get only a DMR and needle rifle - and both of us get infinite ammo. Assuming that a) our skill level is roughly equal and b) both of us are decent players (above a 1.0 k/d for example), I will own you. Repeatedly and mercilessly.

Following that, let's play another ten-game series with same settings where you can choose from the focus rifle, grenade launcher, concussion rifle, plasma launcher and sword, while I get to choose from the rocket launcher, shotgun, spartan laser and sniper. In this case we get only the default levels of ammo for our weapons, but the weapons also respawn on regular timers (3 minutes for rockets, 2 minutes for everything else). Making the same two assumptions as before, I will own you. Repeatedly and mercilessly.

If you honestly believe otherwise, I have to ask: what game are you playing, and where can I buy a copy?

The big reason the balance you're talking about is a myth is that all weapons have specific functions, but not all of those functions are of equal importance. An AR beats a DMR at close to near-mid range, but mid to long range is where games are won and gives players a much greater range of strategic options. If I have the only DMR and you have the only AR, your only choice is to try to draw me into a range where your weapon has superiority - but if I am smart, I will stay in more open areas and on high ground (which tends to be the center area and key pieces of ground on every map), and pepper you with fire until you get frustrated enough to attack me on my turf. You are forced into playing defensively; I have the benefit of automatic map control. If you've played many games with AR/pistol starts on Asylum, you should know that the team that gets control of the middle ring with their DMR, needle rifle and sniper wins. Once you die and lose any of those range weapons, you're already in a hole and no amount of AR/pistol will get you out of it; your only choice is to hope the DMR and sniper respawn soon.

 

First of your examples are a little bias, First one DMR and NR are utility weapons meaning fairly useful in most situations that's there purpose. Other weapons rely on niche situations but excel in that situation which makes them balanced. But if where going to 1v1 your going to avoid my niche situations because you have a general use weapon that also happens to have the longest range. (I still could win if it was a CQC only map so you where unable to escape CQC and I had CQC weapons.(DMR/NR have bloom which nerfs there CQC) so like Countdown with needler and AR I would probably win.)

But In a team game 4v4 your team having only DMR's or NR's and my team having any other normal weapons and everyone with unlimited ammo it would be fair game anyone could win because it's balanced.

I never said it was perfect balance(but it's pretty close and a lot closer then the TU), grenade launcher, concussion rifle I wouldn't even classify as power weapons and you get every counter to my weapons I get sword you get shotgun, I get focus rifle you get sniper, I get concussion and grenade launcher you get rocket launcher.
If i had focus rifle and concussion rifle I could beat your shotgun and spartan laser.


But if this was TU playlist you had DMR/NR's and I had to choose from any other normal weapons you would definitely beat me Repeatedly and mercilessly. That's the point of the TU to make the DMR a 1 weapon to rule them all like previous Halos(BR/Pistol) and every other weapon is a assist or support weapon and the point of the Default playlist is to have every weapons equally as viable choice.

Both balanced both different style of gameplay but when you try to balance the default playlist in a way that takes away weapon balance your taking away the only reason for the default playlist.

 

Doesn't consider the Grenade launcher or Concussion rifle power weapons...

You lost me.

 

Point is that the Sword is dumb.

 

That already undermines the kind of "balance" you're talking about. A utility weapon is inherently more useful and therefore more powerful than a standard weapon. So really, at least three weapon classes exist (in your mind) - regular weapons, utility weapons, and power weapons. Oh, and I guess now semi-power weapons, since the title update elevated the DMR and needle rifle to that status, and somehow the grenade launcher and concussion rifle don't qualify for full power weapon status (yet are clearly better than regular weapons)...

Really, you're going down this endless rabbit hole of strata and niches and on and on. Why can't you just acknowledge that despite most weapons having their particular uses, "balance" in the sense of most weapons being equally useful or equally powerful is a complete myth? It has never been true in ANY Halo game. It wasn't true in Reach before the TU either. 'Fess up, it's good for the soul. And please tell me the next time you bother to pick up a plasma repeater in a game, and how many kills you get with it.

1v1 you might win if you camped like crazy and I got impatient with waiting you out. But trust me - in any kind of team game, the DMRs and NRs win the day. Trying to win a game on any Halo Reach map without mid to long-range weapons, when the other team is using them, is folly. Reach doesn't have maps like Chiron or Longest where such a thing is a possibility. Even Countdown (your best example - and I'll also spot you Sword Base) is dominated by precision weapons if the players using them have any clue what they're doing. Of course, Countdown is also dominated by its CQC power weapons. But if you remove those entirely, I would gladly take a team of 4 with DMRs vs. your team of 4 with ARs. Every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

The key piece of ground on that map is around top health pack and the concussion rifle, and from there you have long sight lines into 1) both bases, 2) both of the lift towers, 3) the ground floor, and 4) across balcony in either direction. From that position a decent team can hold down 70% of the map, including all the key avenues of getting from one side to the other (except for the back wall behind sword spawn). How on earth is a team with ARs going to break that chokehold, unless they get really lucky with 'nades? The only choice you have is either staying in/behind/underneath your base, or constantly assaulting the middle and hoping to take control of it, without dying too much in the process.

With 100% bloom the DMR was already "one weapon to rule them all," which is why almost every player with a good k/d ratio has it as their far-and-away #1 killing tool. The primary exceptions being players who only do BTB and ride the wraith or banshee to glory. I'm not a great player but I'm certainly above average, and I have over 10,000 DMR kills; my runner-up weapon (melee) only has about 2,500. An interesting fun fact: you also have far more DMR kills than AR - about as many, in fact, as AR/melee/grenades/pistol COMBINED. Even in an AR-heavy playlist like Team Slayer, you have far more DMR kills than AR kills. Even (and now we're getting really specific) in Team Slayer on just Countdown, you have far more DMR kills than AR kills - almost twice as many. Think about why that is.

 

It's probably because it's actually fun or exciting to win a DMR battle because you know that it took skill. Whereas if you just run into a room and spray with the AR. When you learn how to use the skillful weapons more efficiently, the game becomes all that more satisfying.

 

Can someone say rape?

I find it silly for anyone to actually blatantly believe in weapon balance in any Halo game. lol

 

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The most obvious things about bloom are that at close range an increase in the bloom setting does not weaken the dmr and that other close range weapons do not become more relatively powerful as the bloom setting is increased because at close range your target is larger. As an enemy is closing in from mid range a fully spammed (100% bloom setting) reticle will increase in size as the target increases in size, such that it is precise. At melee range there is a very good chance that a fully bloomed reticle will land a headshot. It seems to me that only time in which a close quarters weapon starts far away enough such that a fully spammed DMR will not be precise enough would be during a sprint sword lunge. This is from my experience and theory, and I would love to read from a test, while I am satisfied with my experience. I certainly do not mean that the dmr will beat an AR+melee, shotgun, or sword at any given range. If there was no bloom and the dmr kill time was adjusted to the rof at which it is precise from the 85% setting, it would not be more powerful at close range and the AR could be a useful weapon.

The rocket launcher (and the FRG) still kills much more quickly than the dmr, the concussion rifle and the GL have been powered up (right? Was the needler powered up too?), and the close range weapons are not much more powerful with less bloom, so it seems to me that the dmr is only more powerful against the other obscure weapons and the AR, and is thus not a semi-power weapon in the TU.

The TU 85% bloom setting simply shortens (improves in my opinion) the precise kill time; It does not solve the problem of bloom. Players can still choose a slightly higher rof with randomness, but now firing slightly faster than the precise rof is much closer to actually fully spamming, which is what proponents of bloom accused opponents of bloom of doing. So in a sick, twisted, ironic sort of way, proponents of bloom are now right.
I have seen comments about how the ZB kill times are a bit too fast, and I know that the weapon adjustments used for the TU 85% settings weren’t balanced for ZB, so what would be the problem with a 6SK ZB DMR? Can’t they modify the damage done by a specific weapon in a TU? It wouldn’t require “getting used to” like modifying the rof would, it would simply add an extra shot for 5/4 the previous kill time (time elapsed between the first shot and the last, and there are 4 intervals in 5 shots). More time would mean more time to utilize a varied strafe and an ever so slightly greater emphasis on teamshooting. More shots requires more aiming skill; this will differentiate between aiming skills more precisely, sort of how the 12 shot 4 burst BR did. It’s blindingly obvious: if a player has a certain chance of landing a single shot, c, (the abstract concept of aiming skill is derived from this, which can be calculated from actual data), then the chance that he will land x shots is approximately (because there are other factors of course) cx EDIT: SUPERSCRIPTS DON'T WORK, I ALWAYS MEANT C^X I WILL CORRECT THE REST. If an inferior aiming skill corresponds to a smaller chance landing a shot, a<c, and the reciprocals (after being evaluated by division to receive a number divided by 1) of those chances are the number of times the player would have to fire on average to land a shot, then intuitively (although expressing it mathematically isn't)
MATH EDIT: (1/a^5)/(1/c^5)<(1/a^6)/(1/c^6).In words, the ratio of times the player with inferior aiming skill will lose with a 5sk dmr will be less than the number of times he will lose with a 6sk dmr. There will not be as much time for a player to escape as there is in 100% bloom gametypes.

Some say that ZB takes as little effort at as fully spamming- pulling the trigger as fast as possible. However, this would entail being on target constantly with a high rof against a moving opponent if one was not to waste shots (time). The base BR look sensitivity is much slower in Halo 3, because players were intended to be accurate constantly to get every shot in every burst. In Reach, with a single shot weapon and the leeway in rof allowed by bloom, players can be off target and simply fire when their reticle crosses on target; this is why the base sensitivity (I’m guessing) was raised. If you play both tell me if you noticed the same thing about the look sensitivity. Firing when one is on target may slow down the rate of fire, but firing when one is off target due to spamming might take longer; either superb aiming skills or excellent recognition and timing skills (no less simple than those required for bloom) determine a fast kill time.

The only downside to a ZB DMR concerns long range scoped-in dmr duels, and these firefights are prevalent in large maps that would benefit the most from the increase in kill times because they have long distances between areas of cover, in which cases escape is not always an option. The high rof makes it less likely that the player who is shot first can zoom in, even if the opponent misses once. However, crouch-scoping ( the scoper would most likely be crouching) in 85% TU settings achieves the legendary max (ZB) rof with maximum precision, and crouching at 100% bloom is close.6sk ZB would actually allow a player more time to escape or fire back. With a higher precise rate of fire than bloom gametypes, ZB offers a greater chance that one will hit (descope) his opponent without zooming in. ZB eliminates the advantage that crouching gives altogether, such that killing an enemy who can see you (unscoped, uncrouched, mid-range) is no longer slower than killing an enemy at an extremely long range.

Here is a perspective on bloom that I haven’t read before: If a player in a dmr fight is losing, the only logical option is to try to compensate by firing faster than the reticle is eclipsed by the target. In this way bloom can negate the advantage of firing first or being accurate by one more shot. The alternative is certain death. Whenever it is apparent that the battle is close, especially if both players were equally accurate, the one with a higher rof from that point will win, unless the randomness causes a bullet to miss. The best chance then is to spam slightly faster than the opponent and hope. In any dmr duel, then, either one or both players are encouraged to introduce randomness (slightly spam) to win. If you spam, you are obviously taking a risk, and if you pace you are taking a risk because your opponent might spam and get lucky.

I hate the 3sk bloom anniversary pistol because, when the scenario above is played out, there is almost no time before bloom becomes a factor. No one would spam 5 shots; they would surely miss some of them, but with 3 shots it is harder to predict the chances of the outcomes; I think that they would not follow a standard distribution curve as exactly. It has a very high max rof and immense bloom. All of this means that the rof is much more important relative to accuracy than before because the chance that inaccuracy can be overcome by spamming is greater.

 

A big problem with movement in Reach compared to previous installments is that there's inertia. Your momentum carries on which is the reason why it takes longer to move directly into the opposite direction straight away.

 

After having played 5 games in a row with a bunch of jetpack heroes I can safely say that I will not buy Halo 4 if that retarded piece of **** is back.

 

So is there anyway to play Highlands in matchmaking? It was my favourite BTB map in Reach. Aniversery BTB doesn't have it so I'll just have to play regular BTB (with almost no good maps) and hope that in one game all 16 players have Highlands?

Well that was a big waste of my money :s

 

I think it needs work with Slayer spawns *cough cough* needz static *cough* but other than that, it is a good map.

They announced a return of Premium playlists. 6v6 on DLC maps.