Above is a diagram of a simple invasion layout for breakneck. It starts with the spartans in the bottom right corner invading from the shoreline. They start to take Alpha 1 and Bravo 1. Then phase 2 and 3 the spartans move forward to their new spawning locations and the elites fall back further toward the back of and the top of the construction tower. In phase 2, the two ground entrances are contested. In phase 3, the bomb is taken to the bomb plants Alpha 3 and Bravo 3. I am thinking of a warthog and a mongoose spawning back at the bomb, and a ghost in the elite hangar for phase 3. Comments and ideas welcomed, please, PLEASE, I beg you, be specific if you see problems with my plans... UPDATE: I am updating the images with the latest spawning locations and estimated movements. photo album this thread is retired...
It could work, but it's still just gonna be Headlong with invasion slapped on it, which I don't find particularly interesting. It looks like you have it laid out pretty well though.
What would make an invasion map interesting for you and what about Breakneck is not interesting for an urban invasion setting?
It's the fact that a map that was never designed for Invasion just won't play Invasion nearly as well as a map designed for it. I mean, out of all the non-Invasion maps in Halo, Headlong is arguably the most suitable for it, but still. Even if Invasion is set up as well as it possibly can be, it still won't really be able to compete with specifically Invasion maps. It would still be fun, but anyone could do it.
I have to agree. As I said on another design, invasion is something that needs to be planned from the beginning, not forced into a map. I've had tons of people ask why there was no Invasion on Embarcadero, and that is because it was not designed for it. Breakneck (Headlong) is no different. Even if some [paths line up well and some parts work, others inevitably will not, and areas will be sometimes awkward or open. It might work okay, maybe be somewhat fun, but I doubt it will work amazingly. Breakneck looks like a good invasion setting, but the layout says otherwise, and an edited version only takes away from the ambiance. Breakneck is a finished map, unlike Forge World, and would be difficult to change without making it seem like a version that has been screwed around with. As I said, this is a case of thinking invasion is big team battle, which it is not. CTF, Assault, Stockpile, Territories, and Slayer are all gametypes modified to work for Big Team Maps. Why then should an incredibly complex game like invasion not need to be changed to fit a different map (things like player count, number of phases, how it expands.) For invasion to work really well you absolutely need the map to be built for it from the ground up. All the ambiance in the world wont save you otherwise.
A bit generalizing here?? This thread is all about this particular layout for invasion on this particular canvas. Please, by all means, feel free to take all the space you need to be VERY specific on what about the canvas will interfere with invasion as I see it laid out above... If you can show me that something about the canvas would interfere in some specific way, I would be able to understand what about invasion you feel is important that would be lost on this canvas and I would be able to reassess if this would work if I made some changes or if this was a bad idea. But the generalizing won't teach me anything about what you are trying to get across. What about my post gives you the impression I see this as a BTB game? Come on Shoe, you should know me better than that by now...
I think it could turn out to be a cool Invasion map. Well that's just me and I'm the only protagonist in a sea of antagonist. Anyways, as long as you don't edit Breakneck too much I think it could play well. Just stay away from the actual building and just edit most of it into an Invasion.
I'd have to go back into Halo 2 and look at Headlong (I don't have CEA) but I'll try to explain more what I mean. First off I do know you know the difference, but the idea of trying to force invasion in implies the thought that I mentioned before. I know you know, but the action implies otherwise. Here are my thoughts on what is important in invasion: Invasion is very much based on the three fire teams, and so your paths must be designed around this. Your left, middle, and right teams much have paths designed specifically for them so each team can perform their job, have choices, and strategize. Here is where having so much pre-built geometry becomes a problem; you are now dealing with tons of pre-built paths you can barely change. Now if a path has an issue you have very few options for fixing it. Maybe you needed offense to have a path further right but there is an impassable wall. The point is that you really can only do so much with such a map as Breakneck, and the more you do the more it takes away from the original ambiance. Maybe the paths will all line up and it will play perfectly. I'm sure a lot will, but if parts don't you're in trouble. I don't know the actual layout by heart, so if you make the map and have no real issues for competitive play I'll be eating my words, but I foresee issues with the design because of what is unremovable on the map. Still, can you do a more detailed sketch showing each phase and possible paths, maybe different strategies for attacking and defending? It is a little hard to see what you are doing so far and I'm mostly working off of the unlikeliness that the paths will line up right for invasion.
When you say ambiance, do you mean walls and floors, or crates and other scenery objects? There isn't going to be a whole lot of walls or doors put up, because there are just 3 or 4 to choose from total - the rest of the palette came from FW and simply breaks cohesion. But I don't mind using a half dozen large crates through out the map to alter the paths or provide cover. Or would you feel that would be a negative?
By ambiance I mean the feeling Breakneck gives off. It's a finished map, so every piece added will feel out of place (granted crates will feel a lot less out of place than other parts like doors and walls.) Do what you need to make the map, but try to use pieces where they look like they should go.
So I updated the location of the Blue Bravo team so that the blue middle team could move out of the construction tower and have more room and distance to the phase 2 and 3 goals. I am still trying to work out Blue Alpha team's spawn relationship to a2 and a3, since they are literally overlooking those objectives and have a huge advantage. I understand what you mean when you say that a canvas may not always be suitable for a good invasion map, but i think that the challenge is to problem solve the canvas to figure out how it could be done. That is what I am interested in here. I love the aesthetics of Breakneck as an urban invasion setting. I want to see if it is possible to make an outstanding invasion game on it. I would be happy if I could make a pretty good one. But clearly, it isn't as simple as slapping down some spawn zones and objectives. There are too much to balance through out the entire game. My initial thoughts were to have blue middle team spawn above the objectives high enough that the objectives would EFFECTIVELY be in neutral ground. But my initial tests show that they would be able to jump down too easily, no matter where they spawned in the upper structure. Either that or I would have to do some major renovating with the structure, which is what I want to avoid.
This is looking more plausible. I really wish I could get a game on this, but I don't want to fork out for the maps. Once you get a good game on it let me download the video and I can see how it works there. One thing I would say is remove the backfields on phase 1. I used to think backfields should be in all phases, but in reality all they offer in phase 1 is a further back middle team spawn. Best to make each fire team focus on their objective instead of letting them potentially ignore it. The middle fire team will supplement one of the others, deciding who acts as a diversion and who is the main strike force. The only other thing I saw was that phase 2 bravo was behind the building near defense. I couldn't tell if they were on different levels, but I assume they are, otherwise why would you go back there. I'll say this, it does look like you have your paths together. I'm still not fully convinced, but good luck to you.
In the process of working on this invasion map, I was forging with another person who is a strong invasion player and his comment was that Breakneck was too cramped or claustrophobic. So I decided to measure the canvas with Breakpoint, Boneyard, and Spire. Breakneck ~ 2500 su Spire ~ 3600 su Boneyard ~ 3600 su Breakpoint ~ 3000 su In other words, Breakneck has about 70% of the land that Spire and Boneyard has to play on, and about 80% of the land that Breakpoint has available to play on. The big difference is that Boneyard is heavy with multiple levels, so I would estimate Breakneck has about 60% or possibly closer to 50% of the playable area as Boneyard. If anyone wants to confirm my numbers, I would appreciate it.
However, in Breakneck the land available has already been taken up in places with structures for big team play. The other three have more room and already have their invasion structures figured out. Even with similar amounts of land to the other invasion map, Breakneck has structures that can't be moved taking up that space. Also, he might have meant some of the inside areas were cramped as well, not just the whole map, another reason it could be difficult to build this because if a building is too small, oh well. Anyways though, I hope to see what you do now that you talked to Sarge for a while.
How large Breakneck is in comparison with the Bungie made invasion maps means almost nothing. Firstly, Breakneck has lots of vertical space, which i don't think is taken account of in your measurements? More importantly though, an invasion map can be any size within reason. Compare Cargo Port to Summit. Summit is multiple times the size of Cargo Port, yet both maps play Invasion very well. Sure, you couldn't really play 6v6 invasion on Cargo Port, but other invasion maps designed for 6v6 games games exist which are smaller than Breakneck. What you must realize though, is the fact that Breakneck can hardly be considered a canvas. Not only is their terrain to work around, there are numerous structures. You wouldn't be building a map with Breakneck as a canvas, you would be adding items to Breakneck here and there. Again, it will likely work decently well, but the problem is that Breakneck is again. Breakneck is not designed for invasion. Likewise, the area of the campaign which Cargo Port is based off of was not designed for invasion. However, Cargo Port is far from an exact replica of the campaign space. Changes were made to the layout that can't really be made on Breakneck. If I had tried to force invasion into the exact space from campaign, it would not have worked.
I don't get all the hate and the "map not suited with Invasion in mind" thing , the layout seems great and aslong as it plays well I see no problem.
I am updating this thread with the latest information on my Breakneck invasion map. I am not really interested in debating this map. If you want to debate it amongst yourself, feel free. I have posted a thread at HWM on the first serious draft of this map. This was a work that, after much consideration of what Game Elements are necessary for Invasion and how to mitigate the constraints placed upon the map by the Canvas, should play Invasion better than most community Invasion maps, even if not perfectly as Invasion should play. If any of you Invasion enthusiasts would like to play it to see how well it plays, let me know and I will be very happy to join in. I will take criticisms and feedback by those that actually play it. The Elites spawn at one end of the street, where the blue team normally spawns. This is where the Wraith and Ghost will spawn as well. They have to make their way to Alpha1 and Bravo1, at the other end of the streets. The distance is on par with Breakpoint Tier 1 for Elites. The bravo elites can use several paths, but Alpha is really just moving in one direction, but can go up or down under to reach their objective. After this, the movement gets more distant through the vertical travel required to the construction tower. There are a number of paths that can be taken to the construction tower, including Evading over bent covers. A fly through video reach26574316 0 - YouTube.