Firstly- this is very hypocritical. You say you dont like simple maps yet look at your map Arcade- it doesnt get much simpler than that. Secondly, excellent maps can be made by just working in forge then editing until you get what you want. Sure, getting a floor plan or sketch on the computer or something along those lines may help, but the same goal can be acheived by actually working in the forge itself. Having experience with both designing on paper and just going in forge I cant say one is any better. As long as you have an idea in mind going straight to forge works- if not designing on paper can help the process or to get a design to follow once you go in forge. For instance two of my best maps in my opinion took both strategies. My map Union- a combination of Elongation (H2) and Wizard (H:CE) was designed on paper before I went to forge and I followed the design almost exactly, with the result being a highly beloved map by those who played on it. My maps Pivot and Strange Cave on the other had were only designed in the forge under the ideas I wanted to put in them. For Pivot I wanted a 2Fort (Team Fortress 2) and Valhalla (H3) inspired objective map and in the cave I just wanted to put a good map. Both turned out to be very well received. My point is that it doesnt matter how the maps are made so much, just to do whatever fits for the project and the creator. As long as you work to test properly there should be no issues with either method.
Good luck to everyone, I'm glad/honored to have been nominated with a good group of maps. I've played multiple games on all of these maps, and each one has it's unique areas that it shines best at. My favorite of the bunch is Hivemind, it just has a unique game play and weapon set that makes it quiet enjoyable. I don't feel like getting caught up in the previous few pages worth of discussions, but i'll say that I do see a benefit to having pre-planning, with sketches and all before starting to forge. Best wishes to the four other map makers.
Let this be the last time I have to say this: Arcade is a WARM UP map. Warm up maps are supposed to be extremely simplistic. The two maps you designed were inspired by previously designed maps, so once you design a map with little to no inspiration, then you will have a say in the argument. @Union: People who say they love your maps are the least helpful. Your map undoubtedly has flaws, and the ones who point them out are the ones who you should listen to. Stop trying to argue with me on this. If you don't want to plan your maps before forging them, it only hurts you. [br][/br]Edited by merge: Duck, it is no coincidence that your map played the most solid out of the 10 maps I tested a few weeks ago with you.
"Stop arguing with me, let me have the last word." Ell oh ell. And oh boy. Anyway you're not getting the very obvious counter-argument made umpteen times in here, which is that you can use forge to plan. Forge can be used in place of sketching or 3D modeling, because of this reason: since we are not building in the real world, Forge essentially is 3D modeling. Extensive editing and rebuilding can be accomplished in minutes. Grids and blocks can be used to measure dimensions as you build, and removed afterward. That is abundantly clear to most people here yet for some reason seems to elude you. Yes, maps that are just quickly improvised in Forge will usually suck and be random, but no one in this thread is a proponent of that method as far as I can tell. At any rate, this is got to be about the most pointless and circular debate I've ever seen, so let me close with this post, and wishes of good luck to the other map authors here. But not TOO good of luck, 'cause I want to win.
I just don't even care anymore. I have no idea why you feel that planning a map is the only acceptable way to make one and that maps that have been inspired by others are not creative. As for those who say they like Union- I know thats not helpful to the map- but the fact is that in its current state is has a following that have fun there. I would point out the other non-planned map I mentioned wasnt inspired by another map- but at this point I feel like even this response is a waste on you. And I dont want to not plan- I have before and have nothing against it. I was just trying to say that as long as testing occurs either way is good. Planned maps too can have issues, as do ones that were not previously planned.
Since I guess we're not doing that little guessing game after all, I'll spill the beans. (Though dammit, I was hoping to rope you in, because I really thought I could've fooled you! ) Anyway - Boiling Point wasn't pre-planned. I built it on the fly starting with the center room, though I had a couple old maps as inspiration (Chill Out and Damnation) and I edited extensively as I fit the map together. The first draft doesn't much resemble how it ended up, in other words. Hivemind was pre-planned though. I had a detailed sketch on paper and the end result is pretty close to what I had envisioned. I only had to change a couple minor things because the map was so large and object-consuming that compromises were necessary. The main one is that the straight bridge on one side of the map was intended to be wider and have a little more roof on it. This is one reason I don't mind doing my "planning" in forge - it's easier to account for budget and object limits. Interestingly I think one my most planned-looking maps (Cardiac Falls) was almost entirely improvised - though again edited quite a bit after the first build was finished. I just felt like forging that day. It helps that the overall design is not all that complicated - there are lots of connections between areas with ramps going this way and that, but basically it's a diamond or square-shaped four-corner map, with rooms at each corner and a little bit of connective tissue going different directions in the center. The biggest wrinkle is probably the lower deck on one side.
There are a lot of variables in the argument, the strongest one being your ability to design a map. But the proof is in the pudding, all the maps that I know that play the best have been pre-planned. Ex. of forgers who pre-plan: Solo XIII, Nexn, Unoverrated, Fritzster, Deathstars, Waldo, Col Keller, Baron, Levi, Synatric (all happen to create outstanding maps)
Be that as it may, there are many great maps that have had no planning, such as Nutduster's Boiling Point. I don't understand this fixation of yours, but i would rather not spend time arguing, as you obviously cant understand what the rest of us do.
The main problem I noticed with Hivemind (not bashing), is that you have very limited movement for a BTB map. Once you are on a set path, you have to walk a certain distance before you encounter an alternate path. Very surprising you didn't design Boiling Point. You should make room-based maps more often, you seem to have a knack for them. [br][/br]Edited by merge: Or maybe you don't understand what I do. You have not created an original design yet. Once you do, then your opinion will have more value.
Wrong again. Look at Strange Cave- no inspiration from maps. My next two maps to be released in the coming weeks have no inspiration from other maps. Here is what did inspire me for them. Strange Cave- Build in the cave Achromatic- Build in the skybox, room based Final Elegy- Have a purple and blue light in a dark environment. So as you see, these three are entirely original, as were my old maps. Its just those other two really.
The deadline is normally on Fridays, but Noxiw had the poll set to close on Sunday. You should be saying you can't wait until Sunday cause that's when the article is being posted
Yes, but Strange Cave looks like random geometry separated into three parts with little to no attention on how they interact with each other.
Ok guys, this dispute has been going on for about 4 pages now and it's getting out of line. Anymore of this and infractions will be sent out.
Sounds good to me. I've had enough of this anyway. Good luck to all the people that have had their maps put in the voting- you all deserve to win as far as I'm concerned.
Actually, I'm excited to hear about the winners of the FHF, my maps just as good as theirs, intense competition.
Yes, but what I meant was you should be exited for Sunday cause that's when the article is being posted and when the results are shown. The poll closes tomorrow night but you won't be able to see the results until Sunday.
xzamples; Reading through all your responses I feel I have to disagree drastically. Maps are made to a person's particular preference which is generally inspired by years of gaming before you even got the option to forge in Halo 3 (unless you're like 12 and this is the first online multiplayer and console map editor you've played). While pre-designing maps doesn't hurt you, it's definitely not compulsory to do so. You can essentially only "pre-plan" a map that's floating, because you can't take into account mishapen natural geometry of Forge World. You also may slightly get the scale wrong of one piece, which entirely effects the outcome of the map once you Forge it. As you named a few commonly known forgers who pre-plan, I'd just like to mention I don't particularly like a lot of their maps. I did like Nexn's Sequence, and I believe Col Keller's Retroactive had an amazing design, but lacked occasionally in some areas of gameplay. And by that, I mean there were slight improvements that could have been made to the design, which would have amplified the gameplay. I actually remember being shown Retroactive in the very early stages where I made a recommendation about a tactical jump which never got implemented. Regardless, whether a map is pre-planned or not, this does not guarantee it's popularity, or it's success. A pre-planned map can have just as many faults as a map that has had no planning whatsoever. It all comes down to testing, and how the map is amended. As you mentioned earlier, you said I should talk to you after making a decent map. I'm guessing you've only ever played Hellium and Haze. Haze was tested as much as it could be during the original tournament stage when I wasn't a staff member, but once I became staff, I wasn't permitted to test the map with anyone outside the staff room. Because of this restriction, I couldn't find some of the problems some people specified... although... the suggestions made were ultimately preference over clip sizes and general map control. Hellium on the other hand was made by both me and Tz. As Tz had no access to internet due to moving house for a few month, and me heavily working for the site as a priority while living my life off the internet/xbl (yes, it does exist ) it gave us extremely little time to get on to the xbox together to test Helluims spawn system to a perfected extent. Long story short, the only reasons why those maps failed, were due to a lack of testing because of the time frame we had. Neither maps were pre-planned. I see you've got the mentality of a very pro-forger, but your ignorance to minor detailing and other aspects beyond simplistic competitive gameplay blinds you. Open your mind up. Maps in Forge are NEVER going to be entirely original now because of the restrictions we have. If we get a complete map creator in Halo 4, that's when you can start requesting new layouts that have no design influence whatsoever.
This text was very well thought out and I completely agree, but let's face it. Zamples will never get it because he is so firmly set with what be thinks makes forge maps good. At this point I personally just dont care what he has to say about anything at all and I dont care to pursue trying to explain this truth to someone who won't listen. Its just a waste of time.